Smiley Faces in all the wrong places

[BeeBee]

I posted this on my blog and got a couple of responses.  But that's a hard medium to really dialog in so....
My most recent Burda pants.  They feel good, not too big or small, nor do they pull in the crotch.  But I'm not liking the front look (no wrinkles on the back)

Two comments I received:  
from Gail:  

I don't think you could do the alteration on these trousers, but it looks like the pleats are too far over. Otherwise some Nancy Gantz?

And Gwen:

It may be that if you let out the front inside seam, those smile lines will disappear.

I'm not really sure what either means.  Does Gail mean I should move the pleats closer to center?
Does Gwen mean I need to add a bit to the front?  Maybe not pleat as deeply?  
Or is there another solution?  The hips and waist are fine - I think.  Maybe I need to go up a size in the hips? (or take my hips down a size?  )
(notice the beautimous pockets, that I did the cuffs AND that I am wearing shoes.)
Not on me:


ETA:  attempt to fix the quote marks.

[ejvc]

BeeBee, in my opinion, you need to let out the front crotch extensions.  Just unpick the crotch a little, and allow as much fabric as you can on in the front "hook" of the trousers.  Even though there is enough room mostly (because of the pleats) I think there is not enough room right there.  You can baste it and check.  Shouldn't take more than 5 mins.  See if it works.

Elizabeth

[BeeBee]

In other word, just reduce my seam allowance on the front crotch curve?  See I knew there was a reason not to clip my seams.

[marciae]

I also think the front crotch seam is too shallow.  You could sew/baste the seam deeper before you did any cutting or ripping out.  Sort of like 'scoopinng' only you do the crotch point only - is that clear as mud - it gives a longer seam.  It also looks like the pleats are too far to the side - JMHO - I think they need to be closer to the mid section allowing the fabric to drape over the stomach - - while you don't appear to have one - I still think that's where the pleats should be!

And what is Nancy Gantz??

[BeeBee]

http://www.overstock.com/Clothing-Shoes/Nancy-Ganz-Black-Belly-Band-Body-Shaper/4137197/product.html?cid=123620&fp=F&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=12140814
I Googled. 
I will try the scooping on this pair and both scoop and shift the pleats on the next pair.  I think I marked them correctly, but.....

[ClaireOKC]

OK - here's the deal on this.  This is strictly an inseam height (or crotch depth) problem.  The big bugaboo about this area is this is the area (like under the arm) where in is out and out is in.....Taking in the seam means that you allow yourself more room, and letting out the seam means you allow yourself less room.  Picture the space from your waist to the top of your inseam and that space is longer than what you are allowing for the pants.  This has very little to do with the waist, or hip - how can I tell  - the bottom of the trousers are curving towards the sides....it's like something is pulling the center part of the pants down....your body.

I did a simple (hopefully) blog on this here.

What you can do is take in that bottom part (the bottom part only - do not bother the sides or waist or hip area), of the crotch seam, until you have the pants fitting the way you want.

The big thing to remember here is that you're going to have a very fine line between too tight and looking good when you stand but cutting you in half when you sit, AND being just a little baggy, but still hanging straight and being comfy when you sit.  This is totally a matter of personal preference.

The bottom line (no pun - K?!!!)  is that your pants look very, very good, and this prob is imminently solvable....take your time, stick with it, and you will solve it....this area takes a lot of a little alter, try on, a little alter, try on, a little alter - etc., so just have fun with it and enjoy the process and you will learn tons about how pants work and most importantly how to fit yourself!

[marciae]

That's what I was trying to say!   Glad you jumped in - great web site by the way!

[LindaNan]

BeeBee,
On pleated trousers, especially dbl pleated trousers, I like to align the inner pleat with the front leg crease for a less staggered look. 
| |
|     If this diag. makes any sense.

LindaNan

[123 patterns]

I think you are off to a good start with your pants. They look very nice. Saddle problems like yours often can be resolved with minor adjustments. I think ClaireOKC is onto something with reshaping the saddle by raising the inseam (just remember that you will have to raise the back inseam as well which could cause problems for the back). The front rise should look like a shallow J which angles downwards ever so slightly at the bottom. It is hard to tell for sure without the back pictures, but I think that the problem is that the front rise shape is too deep-thus the "hooked" look and feeling and the back rise is too short which means that it will pull the front back causing the "smile". I would suggest to make the front shallower and add more to the bottom back. This corretion would more than likely be nothing more than 1/4". Really, it is all about trial and error. Take a sucessful pattern and compare the rise shapes to the new pattern (align them on top of each other at the knee point) and adjust accordingly. If you have something that worked out good before- go for it!
Also, NEVER clip your crotch seams!  This area has to withstand alot of movement and tension and any weakening of the seams could destroy your hard work. If RTW pants can be made this way then you can do it too

[fzxdoc]

I reiterate LindaNan's suggestion about moving those pleats over, BeeBee, once you have sorted the crotch curvature out. I don't understand why patterns are not made so that the innermost pleat corresponds with the center of each leg. It gives such a beautiful long line to the pant.

Back in the day, I modified a Nancy Erickson pant pattern to do that. I was making pinstripe pants and wanted a nice straight line from waistband to cuff, starting at the pleat and blending into the front pant crease.  They're still one of the most flattering pairs of pants that I own because of that nice unbroken line.  I had studied my DH's pleated pants and saw that that was how they were made.

Kathryn

[shams]

I also agree with Kathryn.  When I look at the first photo, of the pants on your body, I can imagine the innermost pleat right over the crease and it would really elongate the leg - such a sophisticated look.  Also, I would consider eliminating the cuff.  When I look at the photo on the body, my eye first looks at the crotch "smiley" but is then drawn down to the cuff and it shortens the leg.  Just something to consider. 

[BeeBee]

I also agree with Kathryn.  When I look at the first photo, of the pants on your body, I can imagine the innermost pleat right over the crease and it would really elongate the leg - such a sophisticated look.  Also, I would consider eliminating the cuff.  When I look at the photo on the body, my eye first looks at the crotch "smiley" but is then drawn down to the cuff and it shortens the leg.  Just something to consider. 

That's actually pretty funny, Shams.  I usually DO eliminate the cuff.  Partly because my legs are short and I know cuffing doesn't help. But mostly because it's just too much measuring for me.  Nice to be supported in my laziness. 
I'm starting to wonder if I marked or sewed the pleats wrong because Burda usually does the pleats to follow the crease and I think they did this time, too.  I'm going to check when I get home tonight.  They seemed a little too far out to me, even as I worked on them (of course I didn't take the time to actually LOOK  ).  They sort of got in the way of my pocket construction.  hmmmm 

[shams]

With a little tweaking, you will have a fabulous TNT pants pattern.  You are way ahead of me on that score. 

[fzxdoc]

Maybe when you modify the crotch curve, that pleat will relax into place, BeeBee, leading right into the front crease. Wouldn't that be nice.

I don't like cuffs on pants either, as it is too easy to catch the heel of my stiletto in one as I descend the stairs. Ask me how I know.

Kathryn

[BeeBee]

It helps to have a Burda Butt.    (That's what the BeeBee really stands for  ) When I started with Vogue, then McCalls I almost threw in the towel.  They were soooo bad on me.  I didn't have a clue where to start there was so much wrong.  Then, when all the world was making the BWOF Marlene pants I just sucked it up, traced and made a very rough muslin.  Even just half-way up my hips pulling up the trial garment I started smiling (and my crotch still is  ) because I could tell they were going to FIT.  Actual, to-the-waist styles need about 1/2" off the top of the hip at the waist band or I get a wrinkle there.  But that's better than slashing, dicing, taping, analysing, swearing, crying, chopping......

[ClaireOKC]

Trial and error is a good description about this.  When you bring down the crotch (to correct the smilieys), then you may have some other issues...be prepared for that...in the end, it's a happy medium between comfort & bagginess. 

[bessiecrocker]

It helps to have a Burda Butt.    (That's what the BeeBee really stands for  )

turn around and give us a photo of the rear view too! I'm learning alot from this website...

[fzxdoc]

I'm learning a lot too.

123patterns, you had such good suggestions as well. It sounds as though you have fit a few pair of pants and know your way around them.

Welcome to Stitcher's Guild, BTW.  It's nice to have you posting here--what a great first post!

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It will be great to read more of your insights into fitting and sewing. Come back and post often.

Kathryn

[BeeBee]

It helps to have a Burda Butt.    (That's what the BeeBee really stands for  )

turn around and give us a photo of the rear view too! I'm learning alot from this website...

Ahhh, you just wanna see my butt.... 

[BeeBee]

On a more serious note, though.  I'm really confused  .  Do I need to try my seam allowance smaller or larger?  I'm not sure if I'm getting conflicting information or I'm reading the same end result differently? 
Currently I have the standard 5/8" SA from back waist to front waist.  To (hopefully) eliminate the smile should I reduce this by 1/4" so I would have appox a 1/4" SA in the saddle?  Or increase it so I have approx 3/4" SA in the saddle (Yeah, I'm just not doing the math with 5/8"  ). 
OR, should I (on another pair, of course), lower the side hip just a bit?  This, I'm guessing, would be the same answer as taking up the saddle seam but without pulling them closer to me.  I'm so 

[marciae]

Maybe Claire will jump in - - but you would increase the seam at the curve of the 'saddle'.  If you need an extra amount in the length of your crotch - lay a tape measure on it's side and you'll see that you need to Increase to make the seam longer so it will get around you.  It is something that is not intuitive to a lot of folks.  You would have 3/4 or maybe in inch SA in the saddle.

[BeeBee]

Well that's easier to test, I can baste or pin  ( maybe with safety pins!) to see if it helps. 

[marciae]

I would baste so you have a true feel of what is supposed to happen.   I'm not sure how it will look as you'll have a bunch of fabric to deal with - well, ok not a 'bunch' but a lot!!

[ejvc]

Baste, do it 1/4" at a time.  JMHO. 

[vtmartha]

I'm paying lots of attention!  I find that I can't assess the fit very well until I trim and clip the crotch seam.  I'm wondering if that will be an issue as you deepen the crotch seam and increase the seam allowance.

[marciae]

I'm paying lots of attention!  I find that I can't assess the fit very well until I trim and clip the crotch seam.  I'm wondering if that will be an issue as you deepen the crotch seam and increase the seam allowance.

I think it will be.  I never clip the crotch curve - I double stitch and 'trim' if short.  Roberta Carr always had us do a hand stitch to enclase that seam so it "stands straight up" as you walk, sit and wear.  She said if you don't do it that way your pants don't hang 'true'!!  I don't do the overcast anylonger - I do serge, however.

[Elona]

Currently I have the standard 5/8" SA from back waist to front waist.  To (hopefully) eliminate the smile should I reduce this by 1/4" so I would have appox a 1/4" SA in the saddle?  Or increase it so I have approx 3/4" SA in the saddle (Yeah, I'm just not doing the math with 5/8"  ). 

ClaireOKC's blog with the illustrations is so helpful for the difficult notion of 'taking in' or 'letting out' a seam in this region.  As she notes, processing the concept of body space can make your head explode. 

Since what you have in front is a kind of 'wedgie' or 'camel toe,' indicating that the crotch seam is too close to your body, you need to make that seam ride further away from you.  If you change your SA to 1/4" the seam will be closer.  Not what you want.  So you need to 'scoop' that seamline bit by bit until it hangs further away from your person.  To do that, you have to sew the seam allowance deeper; that is, at 3/4" for example.

Not sure about the crotch extension.  If we had a profile shot, we could see if the pants were tugging inwards right at that point.  If so, yeah, that would indicate a need for more room front to back, as well.  But from the info I have, it sounds to me as though you are just a bit longer than average from waist to the bottom of your front pelvis.

[Robin]

Elona, that was a very helpful explanation.  BeeBee, I hope you keep us posted on what you try.
I am very interested - it's a puzzler!

[lydia]

I may be repeating from other posts, but it looks as if you need to let out the front inseam, scoop the crotch by how much, I don't have a clue, but also consider letting out the hip area and drop the front - the pleats do not hang straight.  Joyce Simmons Murphy wrote two articles for Threads, one being the January 2006, #122.  The Singer Sewing Pants book might also be of help.  Pants are the easiest garment to make and the hardest to fit.  I think that is a Joyce Simmons Murphy quote.

[Katherine]

Since you say they feel good in the crotch, I wonder if maybe the problem is that you need more length through the sides.

The pattern fix would be to add to the top of the pattern at the side seams & curve back to the original waist near the center.

Look at the drape across the legs.  There's a line from about crotch level from the side seam to hem.  If you take a pair of pants that fits & pull them up at the sides, that's what they are going to look like.

Katherine