Author Topic: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise  (Read 20104 times)

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Offline Bunnykins

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2011, 05:49:11 PM »
Oh, Bunny, how awful!  I saw a note somewhere a few years ago when the pattern companies were starting to enforce their copyrights that I found absolutely silly and wondered how their terms could be enforced.  One company (McCalls?) was claiming that no one could ever use their patterns for commercial production AND, even if a person changed their pattern somewhat and called it their own, that the base pattern still belonged to them, so commercial production of any kind was illegal. I believe they were chasing down and intimidating a group that sewed to raise money for charity at the time, making it all the more offensive.  I do not understand how the pattern companies' claim of copyright infringement can be solid given that every garment that can be made has been made at some time or another.  I can understand it for things like some stuffed toys (not teddy bears) or hats/handbags, but to claim every garment of every shape when other pattern companies are making very similar patterns is outlandish.  Of course, an individual threatened by a large corporation doesn't seem to have much of a chance.  The US copyright laws are interesting, though, in that a company had to renew their copyright before a certain date or the thing became public property.  I think it was 1972 when this changed and all copyrights were automatically renewed forever. Collectors and the ladies who sell copies of embroidery patterns ran into this when Plaid bought the Vogart patterns and sent them cease and desist notices for even posting pictures of the Vogart pattern envelopes.  Madness.  This from a woman who's outfit, hairstyle and jewellery were knocked off by a Canadian designer and shown as his own.  Hmmm.

Offline shams

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2011, 06:05:23 PM »
It's extra annoying when you consider that many of their non-designer patterns are copies or "inspired" by designer looks.  That has been happening forever and I don't, personally, mind it, because the copies are not as wonderful as the originals and the people sewing these patterns can't, for the most part, ever afford the originals.

On a more disturbing topic: I was reading a thread on another forum and there have been some outrageous rip-offs by big companies of small designers.  For example, I think it was Forever 21 who came out with a necklace that was identical to a necklace being made and sold by a woman on Etsy.  And another big company, maybe Anthropologie, was using a fabric that was an exact imitation of another small designer's work.  In both cases photos were posted of both versions and anyone would be hard pressed to believe that both parties independently came up with the same design.

Offline andib

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2011, 07:03:18 PM »
That is so sad that the little person is the one to suffer!

I have come up with some interesting jewelry designs and I have been very leery to post photos of them, as I have been selling a bit her at home.  If I post photos, I know someone will reverse engineer it and then there goes my edge.  I personally hate looking on etsy to see all of the people selling projects right out of the craft/jewelry mags! 

Offline theresa in tucson

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2011, 08:31:21 PM »
Shams, Feral Child, a small independent company, is suing Forever 21 right now because Forever 21 copied one of their original prints without their permission.  This is something Forever 21 has reportedly done before.

Offline Gorgeous Things

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2011, 08:50:51 PM »
I'm friendly with Susan Scafidi, a professor of law at Fordham University in New York. She has helped draft the fashion copyright protection bill that is currently working its way through Congress (not holding my breath to see how it turns out, but that's another story). She has a very interesting blog, Counterfeit Chic. It's worth a read.

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Offline nurselizk

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2011, 09:43:03 PM »

It is absolutely legal to post a picture of something you own for sale.  It falls under fair use.  The companies who threaten legal action against someone who does this are banking on intimidation tactics working.  And Ebay nearly always removes the listing in question rather than allow the seller to exercise their legal right--I think they want to avoid controversy, but in my mind that is an unfair restriction of sellers' rights.  Amy Butler can claim she has the right to restrict what people do with her fabric, but that doesn't mean the law backs her up.  These strong-arm tactics by companies really rot my socks.

I may be in the minority, but I am not in favor of the bill before Congress.  I think it will kill off anything but expensive high fashion.  As Bunnykins' friend already experienced, companies are already claiming rights to obviously basic shapes.  And getting away with it if the targeted party doesn't have the resources for a legal battle.


Offline Merl

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2011, 03:09:20 AM »
I stand by my own methods of historical documentation of anything I produce.
If someone wants to claim something I make was their idea I can show them my paper trail and the final draft (if there is one) with a notary seal to prove the date.
I can then demand to see the same documentation from them. If they are a real company I'm sure they have some kind of paper trail but, so do I and mine shows I came up with the idea myself so, they can pound sand.....
This type of intimidation tactic, used in an attempt to preserve market share (or to even create it), is the worst kind of business practice. I can't even call it a valid business practice as it would just seem to be a last ditch effort to try and scare up business not by virtue of the quality and variety of ones wares or service but by strong arm and intimidation tactics.
It's the lowest of the low that stoops to this and it makes my blood boil to think about it.
We are still innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof lies on the one bringing the suit.

Offline Bunnykins

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2011, 04:49:02 AM »
Another of my vices is collecting vintage patterns, and rebuying patterns I tossed in my ill-spent youth.  Just btw, Amy Butler's hooded raincoat pattern is a straight knock off of a common 70s pattern.

Offline Pipsy

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2011, 06:13:51 AM »
It is not too difficult to accept the 3 yr concept on original designs for reproduction. providing they apply for copyright registration.  How far back do you go in the paper trail, Merl?  How many centuries do you go back to make a simple cape?  A simple tunic. The concept of copyright was developed to protect those who were truly inventive. But over the years has been rife with conflict. I think when copycats get world wide recognition for an invention (as in academic and scientific research findings) and MAKE lots of MONEY from the copy it is a problem.  But what about the little guy who builds something in his garage for his grandchildren, never even thinks to apply for a copy right and then his neighbour becomes rich making the 'something' in mass for sale. Sometimes the things that copied are only copied for one's own use.  What happens when we make a pattern from a RTW that fits really well? I do this quite regularly. It seems like those who sue or threaten to are bullies. Especially those who seek to make money from their invention by suing someone who copies the invention for personal use when they would be better to work harder to promote their own product.

This copyright stuff does have some benefits but many listing have very black overtones. Do you know that some drug companies are copyrighting genes as they are discovered?  Think of the consequences of that practice. I wonder if anyone plans to register oxygen as they make it in their lab.

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Offline Ann

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2011, 12:55:15 PM »
I wonder about these copy right laws from a little story I was told.

Designer A has a cute piece of clothing for sale in a store in City A. Several people admired it and Designer B purchases it. Designer B copies the design into a pattern making a few changes. Pattern Company A has it for sale under Designer B's name. People buy the pattern.

My question is - if big name people are doing this, why can't we do this?

Ann
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Offline Merl

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2011, 04:54:26 PM »
Pipsy, my paper trail starts with a sketch or handwritten "note to self " when I get an idea for something I think I want to make.
As a machinist I'm accustomed to sketching out ideas as they come up and because I have so many ideas in a weeks time I have to include notes on the drawing or I simply forget what the heck "this " is supposed to be.
That is usually a good test for something too. If I can't recall what it was that I was thinking of at the time of the sketch then it obviously hasn't made much of an impression on me and likely won't on anyone else either.
As the item (IF the item ) moves forward in development I keep revising the sketches and notes until I make a disposition to either make the item or, set it aside until I'm better equipped or, decide not to do it at all.
When I get this far on a project I do go and have the latest revision notarized and the file stays together as a working project.
Now remember, I'm not applying for a copyright on anything , I'm just trying to show the origin of the idea as my own.
I have no doubt that more than one person will come up with an idea at the same time but, this is the only way I can think of to protect myself from people like we are talking about here.
BTW, I do reverse engineer items I like from an existing item all the time but, I don't do it for resale to others.
Like any bully will eventually learn, you can't bully everybody all the time.
I'm not afraid of being pursued into court by one of these bullies, I'm just one little guy with a few ideas and a sewing machine.
I'm not interested in making cheap knock-offs of the same cheap junk that is pushed on us already. I try and develop a quality product from good materials at a price that I am happy with.
I'm not even too concerned with the practice you describe of the drug co's copywriting their gene discoveries. That is an unsustainable practice that will come to no good for them in the end. It's a case of simple greed and , the greedy never win.

 



Offline Susan in Saint John

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2011, 12:04:20 PM »
What we're talking about here is sometimes referred to as "intellectual property".  It includes copyright, patents, trademarks, and perhaps more.  It should be noted that the laws are different in every country and that there are international agreements on the subject too.  It is clearly very complex.

Sometimes "intellectual property" is licensed.  Software for example.  The Vogue designer patterns may be a license from the designer.  I think sports teams and Disney also license their logos, characters, etc.


Offline Fox Valley Patti

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2012, 02:04:53 PM »
This is an interesting discussion. I have read the beginning and own Kathleen's book - but I too wonder about how certain "things" can be copyrighted.

I've worked in the printing industry for years and know about IP there regarding font use, graphics, content - but how can someone claim that they own the copyright to a square fabric bag with a drawstring top?!  I suppose the proportions could be stated to be copyrighted by a designer.

But this is why I'm looking for information on this question as well - I purchased some historical patterns online, they have a very stern copyright notice on them.  They are Xeroxed copies of instructions from a newspaper article from 100 years ago! How can the person who Xeroxed the articles state that they have a copyright on any items made from those xeroxes! There aren't even any pattern pieces, just "cut a square x" by x" and gather it up".

I certainly don't want to be the person who gets sued, but I had hoped I'd be able to start a sewing business, and it appears that I cannot if everything that comes out of anyone's granny's attic anywhere can be said to be copyrighted.

Not asking for legal advice, just wondering if it's pure audacity for someone to claim that Xeroxed instructions from an old newspaper are copyrighted by them.  If I wanted to use said "x by x square", would I have to find the original newspaper the directions were published in? 

Fox Valley Patti

Offline Ann

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2012, 12:35:55 PM »
I am wondering if people can copyright Xeroxed copies of patterns that are 100 years old especially if they came from newspapers. Weren't they put in the paper for all to use? That is what rolled through my head when I read your post Patti. I would use the pattern with some minor changes and sell it. I wouldn't claim the pattern to be my own though if I was asked.

I have bought several patterns that don't have pattern pieces only "cut pieces by a certain dimension and sew them up" directions. Then I see other patterns that are variations of these patterns. They are basically the same with very similar directions and techniques. And people make them up and sell them with no problems. I have made reusable grocery bags and given them away as gifts. My bag comes from a pattern I bought but over time, it has evolved to what I want it to be. And I continue to adapt it to suit my needs. I would sell the finished product if I could find a market for it.

I took a class on making a "gift bag" and by the next weekend had changed the pattern considerably. The only thing that remained constant was the embroidery. The creator owns that embroidery design. I noticed a lot of the items designed by this person are taken from another source and then tweaked prior to her selling the design. I would say this person only owns the embroidery that she created to fit the pattern. No one has sued as the business continues on.

The western shirt pattern I use to sell shirts is a basic pattern that I had drawn up for us. I know I was doing the legal thing. Over time we have added to that pattern to keep it updated. Now that I make rodeo queen tops, I found out I had to design my own pattern. After much discussion, some advice, and reading drafting books, I looked for a basic top pattern, did what changes I needed, redesigned what I needed to, and drafted a collar for it. I make minor adjustments to the pattern all the time. It is my design to use for these tops I sell. Each person who makes these tops goes through the same process. No one will put their pattern up for sale. What makes our tops so different is the materials we use for the shirt and the trim we put on them.

In the end, I think it comes down to common sense. Look for and at other patterns that are similar and if there is little difference in the instructions, then proceed. Add your own twist to the pattern to make it your own. I know this is happening and people are being successful. It is the changes in the pattern that makes it your own.

Ann

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Online Pina

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2012, 06:53:33 PM »
I am wondering if people can copyright Xeroxed copies of patterns that are 100 years old especially if they came from newspapers. Weren't they put in the paper for all to use? That is what rolled through my head when I read your post Patti.
Ann

Ann,
I was thinking the same thing,but was afraid to post my thoughts.I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that way !  ;)

In the end, I think it comes down to common sense.

Ann

 :) :)   ;)

Offline Bunnykins

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2012, 08:45:24 PM »
I am wondering if people can copyright Xeroxed copies of patterns that are 100 years old especially if they came from newspapers. Weren't they put in the paper for all to use? That is what rolled through my head when I read your post Patti. I would use the pattern with some minor changes and sell it. I wouldn't claim the pattern to be my own though if I was asked.

I could understand the copyright warnings on a reconstructed and retyped old knitting or crochet pattern as most of those are written for discontinued yarns with obscure needle/hook sizes and instructions that give you a headache reading them.  But, straight copies of newspaper articles?  Nonsense.  Much better to do what Fiddlesticks designs does and print on a paper which cannot be copied (black ink on dark green does not copy.)

Given that a lot of the clothing designs I see now are straight copies of 70s clothes, I think the pattern companies have some nerve saying you cannot use them to produce things for sale.  As for the fabric designers who sell their fabrics openly in stores yet demand that nothing be made for sale from it, well, that's just indefensible.  Why not be like Vera whose fabrics seldom show up for sale, and then are mostly scraps or vintage?  You just can't have it both ways.  Of course, I'm in Canada where the urge to sue hasn't taken hold to such an extent as it has in the US.   The only thing I've heard of lately is the company which bought the Vogart pattern company and made a collector site take down pictures of the old Vogart envelopes.  That's overkill.  Wonder what they're doing to the people who take those old designs and digitize them for the new embroidery machines?

Offline Ann

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2012, 12:24:31 AM »
Bunnykins, I am also in Canada and see lots of items made for sale using patterns people bought in stores. I wonder what our laws say about copyright.

Another thought -- books loose their copyright when they get to a certain age and people can download them. I wonder if some big company is going to copyright them and sell them under new publications.

As for selling items made from fabric that has a copyright on it and then selling it. When you sell your bolts of fabric to some fabric store for people to buy, items will be made and some will end up being sold. If those fabric designers don't want that, I agree with Bunnykins, don't have it in fabric stores.

And I too wonder what people will do with old embroidery designs and new embroidery software. I think there is a lot more going on quietly than we really know.

Ann
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Online Pina

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2012, 05:20:25 AM »
And I too wonder what people will do with old embroidery designs and new embroidery software. I think there is a lot more going on quietly than we really know.

Ann

Ann,I wish all embroidery design sites had a policy like Embroidery Library.On their site it says :
Q:  Can I sell things with Embroidery Library designs -- including the free designs?

A:  Yes, you certainly can -- and we wish you much success! When you buy a design from the Embroidery Library, or download a free design, you're actually getting a license. That license dictates what you can and cannot do with the design. Here are the licensing terms and policy:

When you purchase a design from the Embroidery Library, you are purchasing a license to embroider that design. Anything that you make with the design embroidered on it can be used for personal use, given as a gift, donated to charity, or sold. There is no limit to the number of times that you can use the design, no "bulk licenses" are necessary.

I make different things for animal shelters and have been making things for other charities for decades.I don't profit myself,but the charities do.I think when I use a pattern or design it falls under the fair use provision of copyright.  ;)





Offline ejvc

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2012, 06:55:26 AM »
This is really a minefield, but copyright applies to the expression of ideas in a particular form.  When a copyright lapses, as it certainly has on the newspaper article, then a new copyright may be generated if work goes into creating a new form of the work (ie, another "edition").  Hence many classic works, such as the Wizard of Oz, can now be taken and republished.  The republished work is under copyright, but you can still use the original edition to make your own copy and sell it.  The legal verdict would hinge on whether the xerox was a proper edition on which the new creator could claim copyright, but it seems like it would be a weak case.

As I understand it, utilitarian items such as clothing can't be copyrighted, for the reasons above and to keep people from claiming that they own all skirts, for example, and everyone needs to pay them every time they wear a skirt.  Of course patterns *can* be copyrighted, and you can't reproduce and sell a pattern claiming that it's your own.  I think not selling garments from the pattern is a stretch of copyright, myself; the seamstress puts quite a bit of work into the finished product, chooses fabrics, etc; I would not think that this is what copyright is designed to protect.  Indeed, it seems to me you can knock off a pattern that you see and sell things from it (disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer) -- see my point about a skirt, above (or the point about the drawstring bag.  I mean, who can own a rectangle?  Sure, you can draw a rectangle and colour it and put type on it and own the creation, which no one can copy (an artist's work would be an excellent example of this), but not a pattern.  It seems to me that pattern-related things fall under patent law, and again you can't patent clothing (most of it -- I do not refer to scuba suits etc).

Again, not a lawyer....
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Offline Bountyhunter

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2012, 04:26:44 PM »
I don't know how many of you are aware of the attempts at greed brought out in the New York times article in the link below, but I would not doubt such attempts being made by companies and individuals you are discussing here to attempt the same thing with patterns, fabrics, and/or designs.

Maybe some of you already live in homes/condos with this little deed insertion and will have the "privilege" of paying a fee (Remember that even though the fee is included in the price, the buyer of "your home/condo" may ask for an adjustment.) for the house/condo you "own" when you sell it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/business/12fees.html?pagewanted=all


Bountyhunter

Offline Merl

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2013, 04:55:05 PM »
I was just re-reading this thread and thought I would fan its flames back to life a little with some more bits to chew on.

This thread talks much about what constitutes an infringement of a copyrighted sewing pattern.
It seems to me that what a pattern company is trying to protect is not their designs (because almost any so called 'new' design is just a variation on  something that has already been done sometime in the last 10,000+ years that humans have been trying to cloth them selves.) but, rather they are trying to protect the future sales of their issued patterns.
A pattern company is in the business to sell patterns only. They hope to gain market share and maintain profits by offering potentially new and interesting designs made into patterns that are affordable and easy enough to use so that privet individuals will buy them.
If the typical pattern company that I'm referring to offers pattern making services to the garment and cloth item industry, that is another matter that I am not addressing.
If these pattern making companies put statements on their products like 'for individual use only' or 'not intended for commercial use' they are trying to protect their future sales and market share just the same as a company that produces any other copyrighted matterial such as book or movies or music etc...
If I want to share a great book with the general public by holding a public reading, I could probably do so with out a problem of copywright infringement if I did not charge a fee or accept any donations of any sort. In other words I did not make any kind of physical gain from it.
But I'll bet if I did this over the radio or internet then there would be a problem because of the potential size of the audience. I know this happens all the time on websites like you tube and I wonder how it is addressed there.
I suppose that if it were some kind of self help book there could also be an issue because of the potential lose of income to the author and publisher that make a living from the continuing sales of said book.
So, a pattern company would seem to be barking up the wrong tree if they wanted to sue an individual for using one of their copyrighted patterns for making multiple productions/units of that pattern and selling them. I would see that as no different than the pattern being bought the first time and used to make the 'whatever', then donated to a thrift store where it was purchased and used again for the same purpose and then donated and.....
Same as if I had a shop or craft market stall where I had five copies of an item made from a copyrighted pattern for sale. Someone from a pattern company recognizes the item and threatens to sue.
Who is to say that five people did not make these items on their own and that I found them at individual garage sales, purchased them and am now offering them for resale?
I would REALLY like to see any pattern company try to defend against that !
Now the burden of proof would probably shift dramatically if someone was offering a significant number of those copyrighted items for sale at the afore mentioned garage sale but, I couldn't guess what that number would be. I know of a few people that make sewn items for resale at craft fairs that have never had any kind of threat from a pattern company or a fabric company for that matter (there are an awful lot of quilters out there that are using 'copyrighted' prints in their quilt with every intention of selling it and, the fabric company that tries to stop that would be putting themselves right out of business).
I think even if someone were to be challenged in court for claiming that they were only acting as a commission sales agent as the reason why they had multiple copies of the item produced by the copyrighted pattern , the burden of proof would shift to them.
I could see this getting into some very grey area though. After all the pattern companies want everyone that wants on of their designs to obtain it from buying a pattern, not from buying it from what amounts to a 'crafting clearing house'. 
That would make for some interesting legal arguments though. I would be very interested to see how something like that would come out.
Of course you never see a new sewing machine that says 'not intended for commercial use' on it because they are afraid they will lose market share to the entrepreneur that goes into custom sewing from their home using a home sewing machine and now they expect fewer people to buy a machine of their own.
Home sewing machines are not built for commercial use partly because they have been designed with planned obsolescence to help maintain continued future sales.
You can can only build something just so cheap/cost effective, before it won't work at all. Now you have to make it so it will only last so long be for it is to be discarded and replaced with a new one.
This is the new challenge for manufacturers that produce durable goods and companies that have been doing this for a long time.
I have worked for a couple of machine tool manufacturers that say their biggest challenge is selling new machine tools to customers that allready have one of their older models.
"The older model still does everything we need it to do, why would I buy a new one?"
Planned obsolescence is a very fine line to walk.
I'm not defending a pattern company that tries to bully us into buying a new pattern everytime we make one of their designs but, I can also see them offering their stuff as a down load only and make you buy a license agreement with it that will spell out just what you can and can not do with their patterns.
Graphic design companies that sell letter fonts do this very thing.
I have been doing some research on the whole subject of planned obsolescence lately and wanted to share my updated thoughts as they related to the copywright matter. 

Offline ChickenFreak

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2013, 08:55:03 AM »
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that:

- Clothing is a useful article, for copyright purposes.
- You can't copyright useful articles.

So my belief is that:

- Therefore, you can't copyright clothing. (This is part of why things like logos or prints on fabric, etc., are so important--you can copyright and trademark them.)
- I therefore conclude that there is no real legal basis for suing someone for making multiple copies of a garment from a purchased pattern.

- However, I have absolutely no intention of acting on this belief. The pattern companies no doubt have bigger lawyers than I do. Plus, I'm usually perfectly content to pay the price that the pattern companies are asking. But all the same, I always like to know the facts, whether I will act on them or not.

To look at variants of the scenario: (Again, not a lawyer, could be wrong.)

Can you be sued for making multiple copies of a toy? Yes, because toys are copyrightable. The same is probably true for many other non-clothing craft items.

Does it matter if you're making those extra toys in a nonprofit context? No; copyright violation is copyright violation even if you don't make any money.

Can you be sued for copying and selling or giving away the pattern itself? Yes; it's only the clothing that is not copyrightable. The pattern is copyrightable.

What about licensed, rather than merely purchased, patterns? Yes, I'm sure that you can be sued for exceeding what's permitted by the license, but that's contract law, rather than copyright law.

What about the nitpicky fact that when you alter a pattern, you essentially make a copy or a derivative work *of the pattern as a pattern*? I'm curious about whether that argument would work.  But you have to do just as much copying to make one garment as a hundred, and once it's ready for one garment, you don't have to do any more copying for a hundred. So, hmm.

Could pattern companies claim that you didn't buy, but instead licensed, a pattern? Well, there's no shrinkwrap license, no clickthrough, none of the legal symbols that the software industry seems to feel that they need in order to call the situation a license situation.

I'm curious as to whether anyone has ever been successfully sued (verdict, not settlement) for making "too many" garments from a purchased (not licensed) *clothing* (not toy or craft) pattern.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 08:57:23 AM by ChickenFreak »

Online Pina

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2013, 04:08:55 AM »
BurdaStyle is an open source website.Burda is the first established pattern publisher to release its designs without copyrights; this allows members of the public to market their BurdaStyle creations in limited editions. The patterns are not to be used for mass production nor are the patterns themselves to be reproduced and sold.

About BurdaStyle.....
Based on open source philosophy, the launch in January 2007 marked the formation of an all new kind of resource for the sewing community. Offering over 220 copyright free, downloadable patterns along with step by step instructions, tips and fixes, BurdaStyle has become an invaluable resource for the sewing community, encouraging people of all skill levels to join and allowing members to sell what they’ve created. BurdaStyle combines new technology with time honored lessons to bring old fashion craft to a broader audience. With its open source philosophy, users of all skill levels are encouraged to share their patterns, comments, and expertise with one another. This creates an interactive destination: not just a website for information but a website with a strong and active community of over 200,000 active members
BurdaStyle was cofounded and is run by Nora Abousteit and Benedikta von Karaisl and was inspired by Burda Mode Magazine, which was founded by Aenne Burda in 1949. Burda patterns are recognized worldwide for their quality and consistency and, especially, for the incomparable accuracy of fit. Burda is the first established pattern publisher to offer its designs without copyrights. Their site,BurdaStyle.com offers these open source patterns to the public at large as well as to independent designers and entrepreneurs. For more information, please visit the BurdaStyle website.

Please check out this Patterns And How They Are Affected By Copyright Law,Debunking........ Just because the company says it’s copyrighted, does not actually make it so.The protection for fashion design IP submitted to the US Congress in 2006,link.

Offline ChickenFreak

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2013, 05:45:16 AM »
BurdaStyle is an open source website.Burda is the first established pattern publisher to release its designs without copyrights; this allows members of the public to market their BurdaStyle creations in limited editions. The patterns are not to be used for mass production nor are the patterns themselves to be reproduced and sold.

There's a slight confusion here. If the patterns have no copyright, then the rule about mass reproduction and selling the patterns cannot be enforced--no copyright means that no rules can be enforced.

Perhaps they're copyrighted with rules similar to the "copyleft" scheme?

Online Pina

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2013, 06:18:15 AM »
All BurdaStyle-created patterns are considered “Open Source.” An Open Source pattern means that it is copyright-free, which means that you can create garments based on the pattern for commercial use. We do, however, appreciate crediting BurdaStyle or linking back to the base pattern. You are not able to re-sell the original pattern.

Please note that only BurdaStyle-created patterns are copyright-free,link.

(I run into a similar copyright confusion when I want to embroider designs on items I donate to raise money for charity.Some sites say,their embroidery designs can be used to create items for sale.Others say you can only embroider a certain amount of items.Others make you beg for permission,or don't give permission at all.My US friend digitizes her own embroidery designs.
She said anytime I want a design to let her know,and ......I can share her freebies with friends,if I want to.  ;)  ;D  )

sp.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 08:44:05 AM by Pina »

Offline CanAndi

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2014, 11:54:26 AM »
But then, what of Style Arc?  Lately, they have been showcasing pictures of Princess Catherine next to their own rendition of what she was wearing.  And they have the "Pippa" dress.  How do they manage this without infringing copyrights of the original designer fashions?

Offline karent

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2014, 02:08:05 PM »
CanAndi, I'm not an attorney and so this is only my impression.  I admit, I didn't go back and read through this thread again, so some of this may have already been addressed.  Copyrighting clothing design is very difficult, as you have to prove that it is very unique.  Most designs like the ones you mentioned are nice, but there isn't anything vastly unique enough to actually be protected.  Trademarking, however, like Disney or sports team logos, can protect the actual image.  So, a company can do a "knock off" of a dress seen in a movie, and as long as they state it is a knock off, they can be ok if they just show how much they look like the "inspiration" outfit.  Pippa, btw, is not a trademark as far as I am aware.  Chanel, however, is a trademark, so if you make a similar pattern to one of their garments (like a jacket, for example) and call it your "Chanel jacket", they have every right to come after you if they want.  Thus, we call similar jackets "Chanel inspired", or more safely "French style".  Maybe someone with actual experience with this will weigh in and correct me if I'm wrong.  K

Offline CanAndi

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2014, 02:17:36 PM »
Fair enough.  Good points KarenT, thank you.


Offline Susan in Saint John

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2014, 03:18:13 PM »
Silhouette patterns also has styles that are inspired by big name designers and often that is reflected in the pattern name.  On her webcasts Peggy will give the name of the designer who inspired the pattern. 

Offline spookietoo

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2014, 01:46:22 AM »
I am not an attorney - but the basic principal at this point is this - the person or corporation with the best political affiliations and who can afford the sharkiest attorneys wins.

Until we as a country learn to vote with intelligence instead of decades of brainwashing - it will only get worse. 

If I wanted to make money sewing at this point, I would find a difficult to fit working woman who is well paid and sew for her exclusively - and perhaps 2-3 others like her - using commercial patterns. You charge for your time whatever the market will bear and no matter how many times you use that pattern, you are only charging for your time. Good luck to any prissy self-anointed pattern designer/ or major pattern company that would want to come after me under those terms. Every pattern will have to be altered so they have produced in effect a defective item.

Etsy is really not a way to make a living for most crafters. Too many people undervalue their time. Many barely cover the cost of their materials.

Bunny - your friend with the psycho-broad business stalker: 1) Are psycho-broad's taxes paid up in full? 2) Is she operating her business in her house in a development that forbids such businesses? 3) Does she employ workers that work more than 8 hours in one day- not pay them time and a half for overtime - and she is offering and selling her products across state lines? 4) What would a $35 background check reveal that a current employer/current church may not be aware of? (She sounds nutty as a fruitcake - anything could be there.) Get my drift.

My brother joined a gym, signed a contract and paid $200 for a year in full to get a discount, in the small town he moved to early last summer.  The first couple of days the weather was cool and there were large fans blowing so he assumed there were air conditioner problems as happens in many commercial buildings during seasonal changes. After a little over a week, it was almost 90 outside and inside was even worse with the humidity from all of the  perspiration. My brother commented to the guy beside him when did he think the owner would get the air fixed?

Oh he never runs the air to save money.

"B***S***!" says my brother and he goes over to the owner and asked him to turn on the air. The guy says no - that won't happen. Then my brother says, "Okay hand me back my $200, air conditioning is a basic requirement in any gym.  I'm outta here."

The owner," NO, you're not getting your money back. You signed a contract, a deal's a deal. There are legalities."

My brother answers: "oh, you want LEGALITIES. I'll GET you legalities." And he walked out.

Next day brother had a long talk with the county health department and the state fire marshal's office ( he had noticed a locked and chained door with a lit fire exit sign - and the place was pretty scuzzy - as it was the only gym in town.)

The day after, late in the afternoon, the air conditioning was running, the place was noticeably cleaner, smelled fresher, and the owners' face turned white as a sheet when my brother walked in. Several patrons applauded his entrance.

My brother to the owner, "You got my $200 or do you need some more LEGALITIES?"

"NO! We're good!" as he quickly counted out a stack of twenties.

If you are not fighting a big corporation, its not always all that difficult to quash a bully.

And for anyone that took offense at the church reference - we had a neighbor when I was a kid that would go to church and constantly, viciously trash our entire family - at her church. We did not attend any church and were considered the "goody-goody" super well-behaved, highly trusted, kids in the neighborhood. My father was well respected in  the community, and had friends and business associates that attended her church. Within just a couple of months, she and her entire family were told to leave and never come back - specifically for bad-mouthing us - after years of attendance at that church. Troublemakers can be a problem anywhere. Her direct abuse of us while at home was also sharply curbed by her own husband - who was a nice guy.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 02:49:17 AM by spookietoo »
-Tina

Offline WendyW

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2014, 06:22:57 AM »
I love the gym story, Spookie, that's great!

I used to read a particular sewing blog. Not any of the really good ones, but just a young woman who was showcasing her personal projects. The majority of her garments were identified on her blog as being copied from Anthropology. One day she posted a rant about people copying "her" designs and requested that if anyone wanted to make a copy of her clothes they should send her money to purchase permission.

I can't imagine having that kind of gall!! I wonder if anyone actually paid her.   
Homeschool Mom and lifetime lover of sewing and crafts.

Online Pina

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2014, 08:29:06 AM »
But then, what of Style Arc?  Lately, they have been showcasing pictures of Princess Catherine next to their own rendition of what she was wearing.  And they have the "Pippa" dress.  How do they manage this without infringing copyrights of the original designer fashions?

Not long after there have been new fashion shows we can find similar copycat garments made in xxxx for sale at clothing and/or department stores,(or similar sewing patterns for sale).

When it comes to copyright there have been some ugly stories.One woman threatened people on Etsy if they dare to recycle men’s shirts into children clothes.More in this SG topic.The person holding the "new process of recycling garments" patent happens to be a patent attorney.  ;)

Offline Ann

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2014, 02:50:05 PM »
Sewing for profit and copyright is a touchy subject for a lot of people. There are patterns out there that are copies of an original that have a 10% change to them and it is legal I was told.

I have slowed down my sewing for others. I found a niche market and did well in it. But it has had its issues too. One lady copied my shirt pattern that I spent hours designing. She isn't using it as we told her the 10% rule and all of the variations I had done with it. Another lady charges her clients for each outfit she designs for them and won't refund the money when the dress isn't the design she sent to me to create and sew. I don't do them as she wants exact copies of clothing worn by others. They are a designer's line of clothing. I will use an idea on my patterns but that is all and make sure it isn't exactly like it either.

There is the "one pattern one customer" rule also. As I do pattern blocks and use patterns for design ideas, I have collected patterns just for that. I may use a piece of the pattern on my design but it is usually changed to fit my pattern.

I really would look for a several women who are working and want their clothes made and sew for them. Making well fitting items of clothing for these ladies can be more rewarding than trying to sell through Etsy or other online sites. You have the opportunity to fit muslins to their bodies rather than guess. That was one of my reasons for cutting back on sewing for others. I really love sewing for others when I can fit the muslin on their body and make the alterations necessary to make it perfect for them.

Ann
Lives in Ashcroft, BC Canada - Desert climate and often the hot spot in BC and Canada.

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Offline Kathleen Fasanella

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2014, 02:22:58 PM »
The 10% rule (or 20%, 30%, 40%) is an urban myth.

I'm a patternmaker, over 3 decades in the trade. I don't know what 10% (or 20%, 30%, 40%) means. I've had people ask me this; I don't know how that percentage would be or could be determined.

Nod to Wendy: I see similar things all over. One blogger I read once, copies X item from RTW or reverse engineers a pattern from another sewer (or indie pattern line), and then gets on her high horse about her intellectual property. Silly silly. I'd say she has about as much luck at defending her IP as the people she copied, have in defending their IP from her.
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Offline lydia

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Re: Sewing from patterns for profit and copyright - please advise
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2014, 12:48:09 AM »
I have been following this with interest as I have more machine embroidery designs, CD's, downloads, etc. than I will ever use.  I would love to give (loan?) some of my designs to the granddaughters, but when I read the extra fine print on the CD case, I am subject to a fine which rivals the national debt.  Now:  for the question.....when I leave "this veil of tears" what becomes of the embroidery designs.  Do these get buried w/me, or just sit and molder in a landfill somewhere?  In the meantime, I prefer to not spend my declining years in the federal prison in Terre Haute.  I realize that those who design and digitize these designs are definitely a cut above we who are using these, but
 I  am adamant that one should have the autonomy to sell, loan, give., etc. to anyone anywhere.    Any comments??  Please be positive. 

Another thought:  to those of us who have and still fashion those little A-line jumpers for the little girls in our lives.....every pattern company from the Big 4 to the little heirloom indies has the same design (block), beginning during the 1920's to present.  Who originated this?  I have a myriad of these patterns and finally decided to narrow my patterns to one designer, as why spend $$$$$ for the same idea marketed under another name? 
"I'll cross that bridge when I get to it."

 

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