Fitting Pants

[sdBev]

Bev,
I may be chiming in here a little late but I think you might be interested in the outcome of the knock off of a pair of pants I bought from Ann Taylor. '...

Interested?  I've been copying your pages so I'd have the information for future reference just in case you took your blog down.   For the first time in years, I made another contour waistband earlier this year.  I was surprised I haven't been using a contour waistband more.  It does take more fitting effort and extra care to be sure those bias edges aren't stretched out of shape.  Nothing in the directions I have is  like what you're doing.  You know you did an amazing job when your daughter thinks you are wearing Anne Taylor RTW.

Ann,& Shams thanks for advice about altering above the knee. I'm going for somewhere between knee and crotch, keeping grain line straight and then smoothing the seam lines.

[DebraMartin]

Aw thanks, Bev!
Here is a picture of the finished pants.


I wore them around the house today hoping the stretch fabric would loosen up.  The next pair will have more ease.  They are really comfortable.



I have some wrinkling happening in the front.  Does anyone know what causes this?  Is it the legs riding up because they are too tight?



I have more pictures on my blog here. 

[Carolyn]

That would be my guess.  I think if you could let them out some in the side seams, it would help.  They look great otherwise.

I enjoyed reading about your waistband technique on your blog.  I have a DVD from David Coffin on how to make man inspired pants and I think he addressed this as well.  I'll have to pull it out again and take a look.

[Sergerqueen]

Debra-
Just taking a quick look at your pants, I think the front crotch seam is too short and that you also need to make an adjustment for full thighs.  I like your menswear waistband technique and want to give it a try on my next pants project.  Good luck!

[ejvc]

Debra, I'm not sure about the front crotch seam length, could also be shape, hard to tell -- but I do think the front legs are slightly too small.  I made two or three pairs of trousers recently that were that little bit too tight (all from patterns I had made before that fit, just having to do with the fabric) and they pulled up in front like yours are doing.  Not comfortable.  My solution so far is lose 5 lbs, lol, since I had no seam allowances left and didn't want to make more pants.  Hope you have success -- it's a nice looking pair.

[DebraMartin]

My solution so far is lose 5 lbs, lol, since I had no seam allowances left and didn't want to make more pants.

Yes!  Anyone need 5 extra pounds?  I'm giving them away!  Call now.  Don't answer yet, if you call within the next 5 minutes, I'll DOUBLE the offer.  That's right, folks TEN free pounds - five from me and five from Elizabeth.  Don't delay.  Call NOW.

LOL

I found a picture in this book



that says protruding thighs cause these wrinkles.



It further describes the pattern adjustment necessary - lengthen the front crotch extension.  Boy, you guys are right on the money!  Thank you so much for your good advice.  Now to figure out a way to slash and spread the pants and make it look like a design feature.......

[vtmartha]

Some of my favorite pants have been ones with a gusset in the crotch.  If you use the same fabric, they would be right in style.  Or you could use leather and call them riding pants. 

[Debbie Cook]

I'll DOUBLE the offer.  That's right, folks TEN free pounds - five from me and five from Elizabeth.  Don't delay.  Call NOW.

Someone in my house must have my phone's speed dial set to your number. 

[LyndaC]

Could be protruding thighs, but those wrinkles are pointing to a different place than yours do.  I was taught the wrinkles always point to the problem.  Yours appear to point to the crotch.   I would vote for an increased crotch length - which , you said, the article recommends! 

Let us know.

[DebraMartin]

I found a couple of gems with a little help from my friends.  I thought I would share.  I hope nobody minds.  I don't mean to hijack the thread.

Becki-c posted a comment on my blog which led me to discover this tutorial by Kathleen Fasanella which tells how to get rid of the extra fabric around the crotch.  It also results in a longer front crotch extension.  She has a couple of posts explaining why we see this more often in RTW lately.  I found it very interesting reading.  I also found this tutorial for a full thigh adjustment.  I SO love the internet!

[bessiecrocker]

I'll DOUBLE the offer.  That's right, folks TEN free pounds - five from me and five from Elizabeth.  Don't delay.  Call NOW.

Someone in my house must have my phone's speed dial set to your number. 

If you are getting a busy signal, that's because I'm already on the line...

Thanks for full thigh tutorial. Very useful and easy to understand. I did alot of biking and swimming in my younger days...am glad I can attribute my "athletic thighs" on that and not simply on middle age flab. 

[LyndaC]

Still looking at your pant wrinkles, I think they are diagonal - pointing toward the inner crotch - instead of vertical, which would indicate too much fabric.  That would make it a fitting issue with the crotch length, as was said earlier.  If it were a width problem, I think the wrinkles would be more horizontal.

[DebraMartin]

This is one of Kathleen's images where she describes what manufacturers should not be doing to patterns.



I am thinking I need to reverse what may have been done to my RTW pants.
Does it make sense to make an edit which removes fabric from the center front and adds it back to the hip?  This would increase the front crotch extension, lengthen the front crotch overall, and remove extra fabric from the crotch area without decreasing the hip circumference.

I made three snips into my finished pants (this broke my heart - sniffle) right at the front crotch extension.  When I put them on, all the diagonal wrinkles went away and I found the sliced area spread out but also hung loose with two little loops between the slices kind of sticking out.  I would post a picture but it looks really silly.  I was surprised to see extra fabric hanging loose like that but I think it makes sense in light of the picture above.

Are diagonal wrinkles a sign of something too small in one area and too big in another?  I have been trying to decode Kenneth Kings recent fit articles in THREADS where he talks about net gain.  I am trying to learn how to "read wrinkles".

I miss my old body that just fit into things.....

[LyndaC]

I was taught that diagonal wrinkles point to the problem area.  Horizontal wrinkles always indicate too much fabric width.   Vertical wrinkles indicate too little fabric width.  Think about that and you will understand.

Cutting your snips released the problem area:  the crotch.  Keep releasing the fabric until it lies flat on your body.  Look at the area now uncovered.   That is what you need to add. 

Of course, you don't want to add fabric in the center front, but measure how much you need and add it to - the side seam.  Back to where we started!

Someone else might say this clearer.

[Debbie Cook]

Horizontal wrinkles always indicate too much fabric width.   Vertical wrinkles indicate too little fabric width. 

I think you have this backward. 

[lydia]

Debbie is correct.

[LyndaC]

You are right!  I wasn't thinking (happens too frequently) when I typed.   Thanks for catching that quickly!

[DebraMartin]

Here is a picture of what my pattern looks like after some "tweaking".



The back crotch scoops down below the height of the inseam.  Does anyone else have a back pattern piece that looks like this?  See that angle to the back?   And the center front is off grain.  Does this look right?

[BetsyV]

Well, my Marfy jeans pattern doesn't and the copy of khaki's I am making for a class on PR don't. BUT that doesn't mean YOURS shouldn't. I have a flat bottom, Debra, and you do not. If that's how you are curved in that area, then that's how your pattern should look.

No offense, by the way. I can tell you that if I line up my front and back waistline, then my back crotch curve is much lower than my front. On the pattern pieces and on me LOL.

And you wouldn't necessarily expect your CF or CB to be on grain. The important part to be on grain is from where the legs start to the hem. Above that is a lot of curviness interfering.

[Myrna]

The back crotch scoops down below the height of the inseam.  Does anyone else have a back pattern piece that looks like this?  See that angle to the back?   And the center front is off grain.  Does this look right?

It depends on your body. Mine does that. It's called a high front, low back in Pants for Real People I believe.

- Myrna

[DebraMartin]

Myrna, So that is what high front low back oddity is all about?  I'm laughing at myself.  I thought it meant that when you stand sideways and look in the mirror, your butt is lower than your crotch level.  I wondered what was so unusual about that.  If anything it would be odd to have your bum be that nice and high!  Okay, now it makes sense.  They are referring to the lowest point on the crotch curve being in the back. 

One other question I have is, for those of us with this high front low back, where is the crotch depth -  the measurement you take while seated that goes along the side seam from the waist down over the hip and straight down to the chair?  Is it the horizontal line that is tangent to the lowest point on the crotch curve?  Or is it the horizontal line that would go through the intersection of the crotch seam and inseams?

[vtmartha]

I'm another one with the high front, low back 'oddity', but still trying to figure out my best pants fit.

[Myrna]

One other question I have is, for those of us with this high front low back, where is the crotch depth -  the measurement you take while seated that goes along the side seam from the waist down over the hip and straight down to the chair?  Is it the horizontal line that is tangent to the lowest point on the crotch curve?  Or is it the horizontal line that would go through the intersection of the crotch seam and inseams?

Good question. I've dealt with it hit and miss by working more with the crotch curve and the hip depth. I alter the pant pattern to reflect my hip depth which is 8" - 1" less than standard - and then I measure the front and back crotch seams and go from there. Typically I'll be adding to the back and I do that in a wedge shape and lowering in the front for my tipped waist which I take off the top curve. I also look at where the break point is and where that will be positioned on my body. Further forward is better. Once I have a pattern that fits not too bad, I work from there.

- Myrna

[sdBev]

Myrna, So that is what high front low back oddity is all about?  I'm laughing at myself.  I...  They are referring to the lowest point on the crotch curve being in the back. 

One other question I have is, for those of us with this high front low back, where is the crotch depth -  the measurement you take while seated that goes along the side seam from the waist down over the hip and straight down to the chair? ..

I'm chiming in, as another with the oddity.  The 2 burda pants patterns I've traced both show the HFLBoddity.  One of the patterns is perfect the other still needs some tweaking so I think of it as near-perfect.  My curve looks the same at the bottom of the curve, but does not lean as far forward as your curve is doing. But I still have to tweak one of the patterns, I could end up with something similar because I too am curvy not flat in those areas.

As for the crotch depth measurement.... No matter where I measured it didn't seam to relate to the final adjustments needed for a pant to fit.  Palmer/Pletch and Betzina have both said the crotch depth is a useless measurement. 

[DebraMartin]

I'm thinking that using the flexicurve eliminates the need for the crotch depth measurement. I have 12" difference between my inseam and my outseam.  That's the measurement I think I really need. If my pants will sit below my natural waist, I will need to subtract the difference.

[DebraMartin]

I finally have a good fit!  I cheated and bought a software program called My Label.  Here is my test pant - first draft!!!



I found this PDF with lots of helpful fitting information.  It helped me understand where my wrinkles were coming from before.  I can't wait to sew up a real pair!

[Morejoy]

I finally have a good fit!  I cheated and bought a software program called My Label.  Here is my test pant - first draft!!!



I found this PDF with lots of helpful fitting information.  It helped me understand where my wrinkles were coming from before.  I can't wait to sew up a real pair!

Very interesting ... pants look great !

The diagrams are really thorough and detailed .. wow.
I think one has to be a pants engineer to maneuver through
all the areas, interconnections, angles and contingencies and
eventually produce a well-fitting pair. But what a coup when
successful.

How many pieces of paper ended up in the pattern ?  Much
hassle of taping, etc. ?

Really looking forward to your progress and exciting results.

~~ Joy ~~

[sdBev]

I finally have a good fit!  ..

Deb I read your blog with great interest.These are indeed looking really really... REALLY good.  Congrats.  Enjoy the high.

I will warn you that I've found that my perfect pattern, needs adjustment with different fabrics. Upside though, is at this point you know what you need and can adapt pretty easily to the new fabric.  I do think elizabeth is right, I found it out the hard way.  Every new pair even with the same old pattern needs wide seam allowances so I can tweak the fit to accomodate the fabric.

I also read that PDF.  Lots of interesting information.  Thanks for sharing.

[DebraMartin]

Joy,
The taping is a pain in the butt!  I printed onto vellum paper so I could see through the pages and it was helpful to match them up that way.  I could see that I would run out of patience with that method so I looked into a couple of other options.  I have a wonderful local print shop which will plot large PDF files for me.  A 36"X96" plot is about $15.  In the end, I found a fantastic deal on a used plotter and put it on my home computer network.  I had room in my basement, so that is where it lives.  I will be posting more on my blog about the software as I run it through its paces.

Bev, thanks for cheering me on!  I am looking forward to wearing pants again.   

[vtmartha]

I am most impressed!  What a terrific fit for a first draft. 

[Janis]

Wow, Debra, those are fabulous!  I'm running off to read your blog

[Karen Roth]

Wow Debra, those pants are awesome!  I can't believe that's a first draft.  Sent me looking at the software and thinking this would pay for itself in muslins, patterns, time, etc. except I hate printing/matching/taping.  And decided to foolishly blow that money on insurance instead    But really they look great!

[Karendee]

Fantastic looking pants, Debra!

Karen

[STLsews]

I really like the way those pants fit, Debra!

Something I do when I've got to start from scratch and make a pants pattern that fits is make a trial pair with "princess lines".  Where you'd have a  single dart in front and in back, I mark straight down through the hem, cut along that line and add a wide seam allowance there.  That gives me another lengthwise seam for adjustments, and (at least for me) it makes it easier to see if I need adjustments on the side seam side of the pants or in the center front/crotch/inseam area. 

It's been so long since I've made a pair of pants (those excess pounds have informed me that they have no intention of going back where they came from and so I'm not going to be fitting into those old pants I've been hanging on to), that I'm going to have to do this soon.

[woggy]

Debra,

I do believe that Debbie Cook's picture is on page 92 of the pdf file you referenced.  Her picture is on the left side of the page.

Woggy