Another jeans sew-along

[Threads]

I'll need to get going on the finish work if I want to wear these Saturday night!

A few small adjustments were needed for the satin fabric.  After basting the side seams, the weight and drape of the pants (a) showed every line and (b) looked tighter than the same fit in cotton twill.  So I kept the front pockets but cut off the pocket bags, so they have little truncated pockets that end an inch or so below the opening (even using the thinnest organza fabric I had, the pockets showed through in the thighs). 

And I adjusted the seam allowances to give another 1/2 inch ease around the hips.  I'll gather just a little into the waistband a little so they stay fitted at the waist, but have a little extra room to not strain around the hips.  Even this very thick fabric is showing every panty line, so I'll need flesh colored spanx to wear underneath, too.

Overall it looks good, though. Definitely dressy, but fitted enough to wear with a good cardigan or knit top.  And if I had a cool beaded top I would wear that over them, too.

As an aside, fabric.com has some very pretty bead trim, but there doesn't seem to be enough time to get a top finished this week, too.

[Threads]

After sewing at least half a dozen pairs of pants using a jeans pattern, I finally got around to sewing a pair in denim this weekend.  They turned out fine, but cutting them out was troublesome.  I washed the fabric good and hard, but when it was laid out with the top aligned on the grain the material was very torqued.  It must be the twill asserting its natural twist after washing . . . but made it hard to figure out how to cut.  There was no way it could truly be straightened, and it didn't make sense to force it anyway, if the fabric was going to bend back after washing.

On the other hand, it goes against the grain for me to cut off grain!  I ended up tearing cross-wise to get a straight line, aligning on that and letting the selvages skew as they wanted to, using the excess for cutting pockets and such.  The next wash will be the test of whether it was the right decision.

Anyone else have a similar problem?

[Claudine]

Threads, I have that problem all the time with twill, except the twists that I have experienced are more slight than you describe.  Normally, I line my grain lines up with the selvedge, but I have no idea if that is the right thing to do.  I also cut in a single layer, which is less confusing.

When I made my jeans out of the 30" wide denim, there was no perceptible distortion of the grain.  I wonder if the narrower width of the fabric keeps this tendency in check?

[Threads]

From what I read (on Wikipedia), the cone denim is made with a regular selvage (i.e. wrapped around and going back the other way), but most denim is open selvage (to be honest I can't quite imagine how that weaving works).  The difference in weaving might make a difference in how the fabric torques after washing.

But now I need to go back to my RTW jeans and see how the grain lies, because I am quite sure they don't take the care that we do to cut it straight.

[BetsyV]

I thought I had these figured out but I liked them better before I screwed with them. The waistband is wider than I was thinking so I think I need to take back most of the 2" I added to the crotch length (evenly all the way around). I made the muslin back in early December and the crotch curve was perfect but the top of the legs was 2 3/4" below my waist. I also needed more room in the front of the thigh, typical. I didn't get back to these jeans until last week or so, and when I tried the muslin on again it didn't fit anything like it did in early December.  I decided I didn't need to add as much to the crotch length, only 2" not 2 3/4". I relieved the front outseam and inseam on one leg 1/2" each (for 1" total additional circumference) which was good. I didn't slash the muslin and add to the crotch length because I was too lazy to reset the zipper, I just did it to the pattern pieces. But I DID note that the yoke needed a sharper angle at CB and the CB sema needed to taper a bit towards the yoke too. Darned sway back. And I shortened the leg above the knee over 2".

This fabric was free from a Craig's Listing and is medium weight cotton canvas or duck. I might have enough to try again. Or I might try muslin again. I can wear these, they're hemmed and everything, but geez, I am tired of this pants regression project. This is a Marfy pattern, #F075.

[marciae]

Look like they're too big in the back??  Looks like you need more crotch length and less width in the hips.

[ejvc]

Pretty good, Betsy, that white fabric shows every wrinkle.  You've got too big a scoop, I'd say, in the back crotch.  Overall the back length from knee to crotch is too long, I'd say.  You need a flat seat adjustment on these.  

ETA: I thought we were the same figure type, but where's the rest of you? You're much slimmer than I!

[BetsyV]

thanks. I woke up at 4am thinking about this and I think I am going to revisit the muslin which fit better but came up too short of the waist. Take off the back yoke pieces and add to the top all the way around then put the yoke back on, changing the shape since it will hit me in a more sloping spot. And actually put the waistband on too. And the kneeline now hits me right at the knee, but maybe it's the flatness of the backs of my thighs that make those wrinkles where the fronts are no-way-no-how flat and in fact are quite prominent and curved/muscular.

And thank you for the compliment that I look slimmer than you are Elizabeth. I think it is probably distortion from copying the three photos into Paint to get them into one. I had to drag the corners to change the size of the photos copied into paint and probably didn't get the proportions quite right. My hips are still about 42" around and waist 29" or so. Haven't measured in a couple of months though. The gym routine keeps everything changing around even though my weight is stable. That's why I am having so much trouble fitting my bottom half this year.  Thighs were 25 1/2" last I checked. Maybe it's time to get out the tape measure; might answer  few questions.

they were very comfortable to sit in though, a big plus with my long lower torso.

[ejvc]

We are truly near the same size!  My waist is currently 28.5 and hips 43" owing to a complete lack of gym!  And I have that same long lower torso.   How tall are you?  I'm 5'6".  I *highly* recommend the vogue 7881 claire shaeffer for trousers and I have been able to make this Ottobre pattern jeans pattern work for me.  I would be happy to send you tracings of my altered patterns if you like, just PM me.  I am sure they wouldn't be perfect but they'd likely fit better right off the envelope than anything in an envelope...

And you actually MUST try all your trouser fittings with the waistband on.  Why this should be I do not know, but it is the case.

[BetsyV]

I'm 5'4", a couple of inches shorter than you are.

My V7881 trousers are baggy in the front below the zipper and grab my behind at the same time.    I have altered them recently, because the twill weave with lycra grew so much that I could no longer wear them. And I only made them for the 2009 SWAP last March! I took the waistband off, took them in 1/2" at CB, 3/8" at the side seams, and added 3/8" deep darts in the back (one each side of the CB). Only the 3/8" darts were due to my weight loss in the last 6 months. When I laid down the waistband pattern pieces on the altered legs, the only change I made was to accommodate the new 3/8" deep darts. So I KNOW it was the fabric creating most of the problems. I will go back to this muslin too, before I make another pair out of a cranberry red wool crepe, of which I already have a jacket and skirt.

[Myrna]

My V7881 trousers are baggy in the front below the zipper and grab my behind at the same time. 

Hope you don't mind me adding my two cents. What I saw in the picture was that the scoop of the crotch curve needed to go lower as opposed to the length of the crotch curve being longer. A way to figure that out is to pin a tuck for the excess bagging at the back and then start sewing the curve lower and lower. A crotch curve can dip down in the back so far that it is lower than the intersection between the crotch and in seams. I talk about this in my blog posting at:

http://blog.myrnagiesbrecht.com/2009/11/tape-tissue.html

Here's what I mean - my crotch is low in the back. It looks like this when drawn from the side. It's not just about the length in numbers but where that curve is positioned. 



Here it is transferred to the pattern...



And here are the finished pants...



I plan to fine tune them a bit more but that's not bad. It helps to get that crotch curve where it needs to be and then worry about length.

Hope that helps - Myrna

[BetsyV]

myrna thanks.

I think I tried that on another pair of pants, but I needed the overall circumference so added to the side seams because this takes some circumference out and they looked worse instead of better. IOW the crotch wasn't any better and the side seams bagged out away from my legs.

if only skirts were practical for me.

[Myrna]

myrna thanks.

I think I tried that on another pair of pants, but I needed the overall circumference so added to the side seams because this takes some circumference out and they looked worse instead of better. IOW the crotch wasn't any better and the side seams bagged out away from my legs.

if only skirts were practical for me.

What do you mean by this takes some circumference out? I didn't find that. For me, the adjustment just lowered the position of the curve and the distance across the hip stayed the same. Perhaps you also need to check your hip depth. Patterns are designed for HD to be at 9". Mine is at 8". I chose my pant size based on my hip width and then altered the HD, the crotch and the waist from there.

- Myrna

[sdBev]

..
And you actually MUST try all your trouser fittings with the waistband on.  Why this should be I do not know, but it is the case.

My own experience insist that I chime in and add the waistband must fit too.  I've been totally shocked at the difference in fit when I removed maybe 1/2" ease from the waistband. I mean the pants were fine but the waistband was just a little loose.  Took out 1/2", the waistband feels wonderful, but I've new draglines.  I suddenly understood the advice that garments "hang" from some place on your body be it shoulders waist or wherever and the garment must therefore  fit at the hanging place before changing anything else!

[BetsyV]

Myrna my hip depth is something like 10". My hips are ~42" around everywhere from about 9 to 12" below the waist, just the shape changes. I could see on the pattern piece when I drew the scooping out line, that it was taking away from the circumference. The very experienced person working with me agreed that it did and to add to the side seam.

And Bev, after I put the waistband on this mockup pair and before I folded it in half to the inside and stitched it (i pinned it only), I saw I had to contour it or it was going to stand away from my waist. Which I cannot stand. I have enough trouble keeping tops tucked in. So I did. Contour it I mean.

I guess what I mean to say is, my waistline is extremely well-defined. When I measured me around 2 1/2" below the waist to try and figure out which J Stern jeans pattern I needed (regular or women's) I discovered that I gain 8" in circumference in that 2 1/2" vertical drop. It's a lot, apparently. 

I'll have another go tomorrow. I repaired a few things today instead of going back to this.

[Threads]

I must be a glutton for punishment.  Even though my own pants pattern was fine, my sister was having a hard buying buying RTW so I have been working on drafting a pattern for her.  It sounded simple enough - flat front, faced pants with a side zipper.  Well.  this turned out to be quite the project! 

She is very flat, so I started with the Marfy crotch curve, which goes pretty straight then curves in at the very end.  But the Marfy side seams were too straight and too low, so I redrew both, and made version 1.

Version 1 of the pants were too tight, too grabby around the butt and too much hip curve.  So I added quarter inches here and there, and shaved quarter inches here and there, and made version 2 pants.  These were better, but still needed more length in the back and a little more width.

At this point I retraced the pattern, which was stiff with taped on pieces of vellum, and rebalanced front and back because it turned out the front was an inch wider than the back!  I made the waist slightly raised in the center back to give more length, and sewed up version 3.

As I got to the finish of version 3, though, I noticed that there was still too much hip flare, and the lower leg was all askew from the "rebalancing" of front and back. 

So I cut up my master pattern one more time, and sewed up version 4  of the pants.  And saints be praised, finally got a pair that really does fit!

And I managed to clear out some of the leftover bottom weight fabric in my stash with all these trial versions.

[marciae]

Persistance pays!!  You're a good sister!

Having said that............ I finally have a pant pattern I can NOT get to fit!!   It's the SW ZigZag pant.  I made it out of a very nice denim (I always do a 'muslin' denim).  I've got a funny ripple right at the crotch curve - it looks like it needs to be pressed (it is pressed) - AND - the sides have grown wings at the side - again at the crotch curve??   I've put them up - rethreaded to sew my red jeans!  I may got back to this ZZ pants - just to say I really can do it!!   It's not a pattern that I would use again.  Even SO said he didn't understand why this one had a ripple - You fit every other pair - yes, I do - but I've surrendered to this one.  Upward and onward to the red jeans!!

[BetsyV]

Wow Threads, you are a very good sister! I know I have been through 4 attempts at the same pants pattern at least twice, so I know what you went through.

Marciae sometimes you just have to realize that a pattern isn't going to work, no way no how. Maybe you'll wake up at 4am with the solution 

That said, I had another go at the Marfy jeans. I went back to the muslin because the crotch curve was fine all the way around; the overall length was just not enough. I took off the back yoke and restitched it higher up to give me another 1" length (I was using 1" seam allowances on the horizontal). I then used 1/2 of the waistband pieces to add that to the front so I could attach a waistband all the way around. I am ready to make these up for real, now. I don't know if you'll be able to read the comments I "wrote" on the pics, but mainly I only relieved the front thigh on the left leg so the left and right don't look the same. I also only shortened the left 2 1/2" above the knee. I will have to shorten the lower leg another 1" and I am going to relieve the calf probably 1/4" each seam from the knee down. I made a dramatically more acute angle to the CB from the waistband to the bottom of the back yoke: 1 1/8" at the top of the waistband. That's my sway back. I will not have to contour the waistband otherwise but will have to cut the right and left separately to keep the grainline in the right place.
Front/side/back:

[marciae]

Betsy - I can not read your comments in the pics.  There is still excess fabric and wrinkles in the back.  The sides look much better.  I know you said you added length but it still looks to me like it needs - either more length or more scooping.

[BetsyV]

marciae if I take those wrinkles out I won't be able to sit down or even walk. scooping does not work for me; it makes everything else much worse. I have no intention whatsoever of using this pattern with any fabric which contains the evil lycra.

plus, once again, I have lost patience with this project. And I don't like my clothes too snug. I need to be able to move.

[marciae]

Betsy I didn't mean to affend you - I understand what you're saying - but there should be some way to fit the back side and still be able to sit down and walk.  I won't comment any more - sorry - I meant well.

[ejvc]

Hey Betsy, I think the tight side looks cute 

I have those wrinkles sometimes, but with my Ottobre trousers that started from a smaller size I was able to fit them out. I understand losing patience though.  The wrinkles point to the upper back thigh, you might release the inseam a bit and get a smoother look.

[BetsyV]

Marciae I didn't take any offense! Please keep commenting! I just have been so frustrated this year with pants. This is the 4th or 5th pattern I have tried to make work for me this year and I am just really frustrated. A friend who teaches sewing & tailoring at a local college even helped draft a basic trouser from my measurements and it's a mess now. As if my normal shape weren't hard enough, the gym keeps changing where everything is. This pattern was perfect on December 5th (except for not coming up to my waist and the thighs a little snug) and on February 1st was just wrong again, and I weighed the same, it just moved around again! Susan Khalje even told me I had a cute butt when I tried this muslin on the first time! First time in 50 years anyone said THAT about me!

Elizabeth I will try that before I cut into the wool denim. Which wasn't terribly expensive but is so nice, I would like the jeans I make from it to look their best.

We're done with the apartment except the renting it part, so back to my regular routine.

[marciae]

I do understand the frustration.  Since scooping doesn't work - have you tried to shorten the seam?  When I look at the back I want to grab and pull down to get all that excess fabric from bunching under your buns!   Could be that the back crotch is too long, rather than too short.  When you shorten that seam it will give more fabric to the sides - so you may have to take the sides in a bit.  The drag lines in front look to me like too much fabric?   It looks like you need to remove the zipper and somehow 'push' all the excess fabric to the center front and recut.  Hoping someone else jumps in her to help.  When I talk about shorten the seam - I mean to sew closer to the cut side of the fabric - start right below the yoke and continue as far into the front as you can.  This "might" take care of the big wrinkles in the front.   Then take out the other stitching - If this doesn't work you still have all your fabric - if it does work you can adjust accordingly.

[ejvc]

I agree with too much fabric.  I examine the Ottobre trousers today as I was wearing them and there aren't wrinkles.  So I believe it can be done.  And Marcia here has fitted ten thousand pairs of pants.  You've lost some inches, is all, and although you're frustrated you should take the time to show off your cute butt :-)

[marciae]

Weeellllll - I wouldn't go that far - - but thanks!  (so why can't I fit the ZZ's)

[sdBev]

..  (so why can't I fit the ZZ's)

I think someone has already said this, some drafts don't fit PERIOD.  There's nothing you can do but toss.

Betsy I sympathize I went thought draft after draft after draft last year.  I had lost about 10 pounds and inches from my waist and hips so I know my body shape was different. But it was frustrating as I really reduced my bottom weight stash and most of it went into cleaning rags instead of my closet.  A sewing angel gave me some help.  I have a pattern now that is really close to being perfect.  I don't even want to try another draft.  I just keep using this one and tweak it a little more each time.  

[Threads]

Just an aside on the construction front.  The pants I have been sewing for my sister are intended to be a very slim fit - no pleats, no pockets, facing instead of a waistband,  invisible side zipper.  She wears them under pullovers and wants the sleekest possible fit without being skin tight.

In one draft  I was using up leftover fabric, and squeezed out just enough to cut the pants, but not a scrap left over for facing.  So I cut facings from remnants of quilting fabric - a colorful batik (batiks are usually good quality, tightly woven cotton); and interfaced with fusible weft.  It worked out really well.  The interfaced fabric is very stable, but also less bulky that if I had used self-fabric.

I was so pleased with the result that I am now using batiks for facings on all the pants.  It will have the bonus feature of not being itchy when I am making wool pants.

[vtmartha]

I've seen some great pants with interesting facings, Threads.  I wish I had such a collection of scraps to use.  Maybe I should order a yard or two of batiks just for that purpose.  Oh, wait a minute!  I may even have some, uncut. 

[Threads]

My quilting scraps are often cut in 2.5" strips, but now that I have found an alternative use I will have to consider chopping up all my yardage.

I'll also say that I now have huge respect for everyone working to get pants that fit!  Every time I moved a little bit on one piece it threw off everything else and make weird torques that had to be fixed in the next round.  Whack-a mole!

[BetsyV]

Whack-a-mole is right, Threads!

Well I decided I am done messing with this pattern in muslin. I am going to make it up this week in wool denim. I tried two approaches today:
1) added 2 fisheye darts to the back of the left thigh, one horizontal below the butt 1/2" deep and one vertical between the horizontal fisheye and the kneeline 3/8" deep at midpoint. The results are the first 3 photos here. This was marciae's idea, remove some fabric from the back to get rid of yesterday's wrinkles. It worked. 
2) I took those out, moved the horizontal fisheye dart a little higher and straightened it out, and relieved the back leg seams 1/4" from the crotch to the knee. I had already relieved them from the knee down to give my muscular calves a tad more room. Those photos are the 4th-6th in the album link above. This was Elizabeth's idea, that more room would allow the wrinkles to relax and fall out. It worked, too.

The lingering quandary is that, even with more room, the muslin is still snug across the thighs when I sit down in it:  I don't know if the stress wrinkles are very clear in the photo but they are sure there.

I guess I hope the twill weave will be more forgiving than muslin.

Thanks everyone for help, suggestions, and support through this mini-saga. This will be one time I cut apart the muslin and use IT to cut the fashion fabric, at least the leg pieces where I did most of the changes.

[Threads]

I am officially blaming Claudine for my current project!  I had never heard of shuttle loom denim (or selvage denim) until she posted about her jeans.  But it sounded interesting, particularly when I found a whole (sort of strange) subculture around "dry" denim.  These very expensive jeans are made with the indigo dyed shuttle loom denim, sewn with the selvage finishing the outseam (i.e. pressed flat and not serged off), and then worn without washing for months to get just the right wear patterns.  Seems to be almost exclusively men that do the wearing without washing (why am I not surprised!).

Anyway, I think I'll pass on the whole not washing thing, particularly since I like to wash my denim a few times before cutting.  But I did buy 3 yards of shuttle loom denim, and took a stab at modifying my favorite jeans pattern to use the selvage instead of a cutting line.  It isn't completely feasible because I need some curve at the hips, but I made them straight towards the hem and hope that it doesn't make any weird twists in the leg.

Normally I rely on serging or felling to give some extra strength to the seams, so for this maybe I'll stitch a straight seam twice, close together, to give some insurance.

Everything is cut out, but here in California we aren't getting any snow days so it might be a couple before I get the time to start sewing.

[ejvc]

Betsy, I so admire you for perservering and it looks like you have had very good results.  The photos even pre dart-straightening look much improved on the previous muslin.  I would not worry about the tightness across the thigh when you sit down.  I mean -- these are jeans, and not men's skater jeans either.

Elizabeth

[marciae]

I finished my red jeans!! - - Well, I do need to sew on the button.  I want to wear them tomorrow - Valentines Day!  I hadn't made any jeans since last year at this time and I'd dropped 10lbs.  I adjusted the side seams but forgot to adjust the crotch length!   I realized it when I tried them on and I have a bit of a wrinkle in the back.  Probably no one will notice but it will drive me crazy!!   I learned several things sewing this pair - - #1 - THINK - I made belt loops (why I don't know - I very rarely wear a belt) and I made them too narrow!!   - #2 finishing crotch seam - - usually I put one pant leg inside the other to finish any type of pants.  This time I did it per instruction  - I did the double top stitching on the back - then when I sewed together I started at the end of one pant leg continuing up to the crotch point and back down the other pant leg.  This gave more of a jean "cup" to the back - - which I don't particularly like!!  But all in all they look ok.  If I decided I can't wear them out - I can garden and 'walk the woods' in them.

Last summer I took all the clothes that I wasn't 'sure' about to the cabin with me.  I figured since no one would see me it would be a good time to wear them.  Well, turns out, if I don't like the way they look on me I'm not going to wear - - no where!  Did a pretty good purge of clothes that way.

On to the navy pair!!

[vtmartha]

I finally took photos of me in the jeans I expected to fit well.  What a disappointment!  I had lost some weight since I had them fitted but took the side seams in to compensate.  They are still baggy with wrinkles going every which way.  I will post a link to the photos soon and hope you all will be kind enough to suggest pattern modifications before I try another pair.  At least I can wear plenty of pairs of jeans in the barn without worrying about who might be assessing their fit.