sdBev 2009 Trouser Fitting

[sdBev]

Hi Guys

I definitely need help.  This is my 4th (I think) go at fitting the back of trousers, not jeans.  Jeans have a different, although, similar fitting issues  I'm satisfied with the front, or nearly satisfied, so I don't plan on discussing the front. But the back is really perplexing.  At this point I have
    1) added a 3" gusset to the back crotch at the inseam.
    2) scooped about 1/8" extra out of the bottom of the back crotch
    3) taken a diagonal dart across the back

I'm happy to say, I no longer need to reach back and yank the pants out of my crotch, thanks to the gusset.  The diagonal dart pretty much took care of all the wrinkles across the top of the back.  And,, make that a very big happy AND, they feel comfortable. The waist fits and does not gap.  They are the right length for me. They are constructed from a very firm cotton twill, I remember calling this "shark skin" when I was in Junior High School --too many years ago to be relevant but you know how memories are.  They bubble up when least expected.   

It's 10PM at my house and I've put away my sewing for the evening.  Took final pictures to post here along with my plea for help. I cannot seem to fix the diagonal and vertical wrinkles underneath my derriere.  Taking in from the side or the inseam just makes the pants too tight -- as in my underwear are visible if I take in 1/8" on both sides.  If I try to take in more , like the same 1/8" at the center back seam, I get the same result (ghostly presence of underwear). I do feel that the fabric may be part of the problem.  I narrowed the leg some because this fabric has so much body it stands away and makes me look much larger.  I'm reluctant to take in more, however, because it starts limiting my ease of movement.  I thought, I would post asking for help, go to sleep and see if any of my friends on the other side of the world could come up with some suggestions.

[DebbieY]

Bev I am in no way qualified to help and I will leave that to the talented amongst us, but I want to say I think you have the front fitting very well (they look great) and same with the waistband and across the back. You've done a super job on getting those bits to fit so well.

I don't even know where to start fitting pants, I am yet to plunge into this minefield and this is why. I have to deal with large thighs and legs, hips two sizes larger than waist, a protruding stomach, and goodness knows what else it is that causes vertical folds across the back under the backside. I don't even know where to begin!

I hope one of the fitting guru's can give you the tweak you need to have the spectacular fit you're after.

[ejvc]

Hi Bev -- wow, they are looking much better and I'm glad the back inseam suggestion helped.  My suggestion about the wrinkles is based on the fact that I don't have this problem due, I suspect, to generous booty :-)  -- so, I think you ought to experiment pinning out a horizontal tuck under the derriere.  It looks to me like the back leg is sagging.  I would make the tuck shaped like a dart with the point towards the outseam and the wider part towards the inseam. In other words your inseam is a bit too long.    I think.

[Marji]

I see what Elizabeth sees. Your inseam is too long. I've drawn the pattern alteration I'd make to solve this.



(ignore the fisheye dart drawn on the pattern - that is for a different function for a student of mine)

step 1. cut out a box around the inseam portion of the pattern - drawn here in red


click on image to make it larger
step 2. move the box up the desired amount as determined by fitting muslin. Redraw hemline

Also note that

What you scoop out in the crotch you need to add back to the side seam


edit to add larger image of drawing

[vtmartha]

Thanks for posting this, Marji.  I'm having a little difficulty understanding how this works and, as I suspect I have similar issues, I'm hoping to get a better grasp.  If you shorten the back inseam at the crotch and then lengthen it at the hem to match the front inseam, it appears to me that the result is to take a bit of width from the back upper thigh rather than length from the back inseam.  Is that what is actually happening, or am I missing something?

[ejvc]

Wow, Marji, how do you do those cool diagrams?

[Marji]

Martha, you're not adding it back at the hem. You're taking it out at the back thigh and leaving it out. This takes the hem slightly off grain, but there isn't a lot to be done about that.
Sorry, if this were a class I'd have diagrams to go all the way through it, but since I'm just posting this on the web, I'm taking shortcuts here, and assuming the rest will get done.

In the actual alteration you would true up the line from the crotch point to the knee, so you are not, in effect taking anything away from the inner thigh in circumference.
Then you would also adjust the hem length on the front to match the back.
In my world, I'd just draw a chalk line on the front hem for the amount that I took off to remind myself about why the back and front won't match when sewing together, then I'd make the actual hem adjustment when hemming the pants. Lazy girl...

If the pant draft was correct in the first place, the inseam on the back will be shorter than the inseam on the front by about 1/2", which is the eased in while sewing. This helps to draw the pant leg in under the tush.
Unfortunately, in these days of cad-grading, that inseam differential isn't always perfect on all sizes.



Elizabeth, I use Paint.net to draw on the diagrams. There are some serious limitations, however it's a free program and it's quick!

[vtmartha]

Thanks, Marji.  I understand.   

[ClaireOKC]

Marji is right on....to put it bluntly your crotch line is too high....and your body is pulling it down, so you need to lower your crotch or as Marji so delicately puts in shorten your inseam. 

As Marji showed it is correct - you have to be very careful not to change that center back seam (don't make it smaller) at the same time you have to make the curve come lower.  Marji did a great job showing this on her patterns.

The trick here is to allow enough ease so that the pants hand straight from your buns & stomach.  To me that's the sign of a great fitting pant.  Even if the pants taper in a little, you want them to hang straight.  Any time there is a pull or wrinkling when you're standing, something's wrong.

The next is to make sure you have enough ease so that when you sit down they aren't strangling you.  I think that this is a personal thing and for each of my clients when I do this, they are all different - some like it looser, some like it tighter. 

I did a little visual on that crotch line in a blog here, but basically Marji has covered it really well. 

PS - do this on your muslin so that you can mess them up and not your fashion fabric pants, but after you get the fit (and hang) you want on your pants muslin, I'll just bet you can make that alteration on your fashion fabric pants...it looks like you can.

[marciae]

I agree on all counts - except I can't grasp why you put a gusset in the crotch - if you adjust the crotch length would you really need that?  It also looks like the pants may be too wide across the hips - but it is hard to tell until the crotch length is settled.  While I like the yokes on the pants I'm thinking it might have been easier to use a 'regular' style?  JMHO   I admire your perseverance!!

And just thoughts of my own - you said you "always" fit into a KS design - - I think you've lost quite a bit of weight also?? - - my point is that maybe you would have better luck with a different block/pattern.  For me I could always wear a Burda - now - it's a struggle - I do better with a Vogue - any vogue - and not necessarily Sandra Betzina.  I've "matured" and gained weight and of course I'm sagging.  Just thought I'd throw that out for you to think about.

[ClaireOKC]

For marciae - I don't think you do need a gusset in the crotch.  And as far as perseverance - that's the name of a good pants muslin....you lower the crotch and then something else happpens (like the hips being too big), you release the inseam, and the crotch seems too low - it's all a balancing act and getting one alteration to match with the other is all a matter of how you want the pants to fit.

I think you are very, very close to an excellent pants pattern so do not give up now. 

As far as the yoke idea - it's an interesting idea, but it's so nice to have a pants muslin with darts at torso (the upper hip/stomach area), instead of a yoke, because you will eventually want to have pants that do not have that yoke piece in them.  Also from the darts you can do all sorts of variations (pleats for one), that you can't do with the yoke piece. 

But the bottom line is what works for you.  We can all advise you, but it's what works for you that is the best!!!

[marciae]

Thanks Claire - I'm sure all this info will help Bev get a good looking pant pattern.

Also I noticed you were new to the board - welcome - nice to have all the input we can get.  Sounds like you do custom sewing also?

[Katherine]

Bev, is this a Kwik Sew pattern?

When I first saw the picture I thought it looked like you needed to get your front to back depth by cutting into the back at the seat.  That would straighten the CB either a lot, or a little.  Then I saw Marji's post.  You may have too much inseam length, but KS patterns have a really, really slanted CB seam.  That throws a lot of fabric right below the seat.

It's possible that you need to do both.

KS pants patterns require such radical alterations that I won't use them anymore, no matter how much I like the style.

[ClaireOKC]

Marciae - actually I'm not new...actually not that new - about a year, just haven't posted here as much as I should - but thank you very much for the welcome!!!

[marciae]

Marciae - actually I'm not new...actually not that new - about a year, just haven't posted here as much as I should - but thank you very much for the welcome!!!

Glad you've decided to post!!

[marciae]

Bev - how are the pants coming along?

[sdBev]

Bev - how are the pants coming along?

need a few days to catch up with life, so the pants are temporarily on hold.  I expect to get back to them Thursday or Friday. 

Before I retired I thought I would have all the time in the world to do the things I wanted, if I just didn't have to work.  Now, that I'm retired I can tell you that life has a way of interferring with fun.

[marciae]

Tell me about it - I've been retired for 7 years now and I'm so darn busy I wonder how I had time to work!!   We're leaving Fri for the cabin - planning on "closing" so I won't be back until next Thursday.  Will look forward to seeing your pants upon my return!

[MasoumaRose]

I'm curious---what pattern are you working with?  I think that I'm seeing two yokes (one front, one back) and I like the look.  Can please share the info when you have the chance? 

Thanks! 

Rose in SV

[sdBev]

Hey Guys

I've moved along on my pants fitting.  Marji, I'm sorry to say your suggestion made the wrinkles worse.  So that's not the solution for my body.  Also there is a point at which adding to the inseam no longer helped either, so Elizabeth your suggestion worked to a point and then did no more.  I was truly frustrated and (on my blog) called an end to fitting the trouser pattern. 

Decided to go back to my TNT jeans pattern which fits nearly every where but has these odd diagonal wrinkles from the back inner thigh to the back knee.  On my blog someone posted the comment that I may have knock knees, which would account for the the diagonal lines.  That made me stop and think.  I don't really have knock knees, my legs are not turning inward, but I do tend to accumulate a little "fluff" around the knee.  So I did a search on alterations for knock knees and found cedebbies's experience http://www.cedesign.com/familyphotos/sewing/info/pantswedge/index.html which strangely parallels my own and the wrinkles on her pants look exactly like my own! She has fuller inner thighs.  I do not believe that I do.  Even now at 20 pounds over my ideal, when I stand straight my thighs have at least 1 inch of air between them, but maybe the fluff around the knee is affecting my conclusion.  I made a quick decision to at least try her solution on my TNT jeans.  Did that today.  But I'm not sure it helped.  What do you think?

NOTE LEFT pic is the new jeans with KK alteration; pic on the RIGHT is without alteration.  (I know someone won't read this note and will make a head-shaking comment, but I did try to explain what you are looking at.)

[stashpanache]

Sometimes left right gets turned around so I will refer to the pants as the "dark navy" pair and the "khaki with embroidery on the pockets" pair.  The "dark navy" pair is not an improvement, imho.  The "khaki" pair is not that far off from perfect.  I know nothing about fitting.  But on the "khaki" pair, it just looks like they cup in under your bottom a little too much.  So, doesn't that have something to do with the crotch curve?  Dunno.  But, the legs hang better on the "khaki" pair imho.

[ejvc]

Bev, I participated in a critiques thread a while ago where there was a weird grain twist after some alterations to a pattern.  These trousers, especially the khakis, are reminding me of that.  Would you be so good as to post a photo of your pattern piece?  And/or, can you see the grain on either of these pairs, and could you mark it?  my idea is that the part of the trousers under the seat has moved horizontally too far -- this can result (I think) from adding or subtracting width only on one side.   The knock-knee alteration is an example of what you can do to correct it.   

Sigh.  Why don't we have fitting buddies who live near us?  I feel sure we could sort it out together.

[sdBev]

Bev, I participated in a critiques thread a while ago where there was a weird grain twist after some alterations to a pattern.  These trousers, especially the khakis, are reminding me of that.  Would you be so good as to post a photo of your pattern piece?  And/or, can you see the grain on either of these pairs, and could you mark it?  my idea is that the part of the trousers under the seat has moved horizontally too far -- this can result (I think) from adding or subtracting width only on one side.   The knock-knee alteration is an example of what you can do to correct it.   

Sigh.  Why don't we have fitting buddies who live near us?  I feel sure we could sort it out together.

Interesting thought.  I redrew the grain line by extending it into the lower leg absolutely straight from the top.  Can't post a picture, and I think my verbal description is sorely lacking.  I will look at the grain line the next time I sew the jeans.

[marciae]

Bev - when you decide to take up pant fitting again why don't you try a different brand of pattern - Vogue or Burda.  I could be that as you're body has changed the KS block no longer works for you.

Have you tried putting a wedge in the center back rather than on the inseam part.  It looks to me like you need more length there and the sides need to drop a bit to take care of all the excess fabric under your buns.

[vtmartha]

I've been wondering what would happen if you released the waistband on the original pair and let the pants fall further down on your hips.  It looks to me like they are being pulled up over the hip more than they should be.  I'm another fitting novice so I'm just going by what I see.

[stashpanache]

I think Martha is right.  It looks to me like everything is just "up" a little too high.  The bottom and the sides.

[Katherine]

Bev, I never understood Marji's adjustment for shortening the inseam.  I agree the first ones probably had an inseam a bit long.  The excess length was between the knee & crotch.  Marji's adjustment took it off the hem & threw the grain.  The crotch point was still in the same place.

The photo you posted from Debbie Cook's blog was originally from Skirts & Pants Patterns The Minott Method.  Her book shows a different way of shortening the inseam.  She calls it the X section.  You draw a box around the crotch area from the hip to a couple of inches below the crotch.  Then you cut that box & move it down the needed amount & true the seams.  That takes it from where it needed to go.

I don't know when your KS pattern was from, or even what a pattern less than a year old looks like, but I gave up on them because the CB looks like a ski jump.  I think all of your pictures show signs of too much slant.  Please try on one of your muslins what I suggested before.  There are 2 ways to get more depth from front to back.  One is to add to the crotch extensions.  The other is to cut into the back & add the fabric you cut away to the side seams to maintain the hip measurement.  The 2nd way will straighten the CB some if you taper back to the original waist.  You can also do it keeping the same slant if you cut all the way to the waist.

Dark colors don't photograph well, so I'm not sure what's happening to the seat, but if you look at the hem, the navy ones stick out towards the inseam.  That says moving the legs in wasn't you.  In the light colored jeans, are your knees hitting the fabric at the inseam?

I agree with Marcia.  You no longer have a KS body  As far as "up too high, without seeing the waist area, I can't tell.