Request advice about improving the fit of jeans

[JLCurtis]

Thank you all for your kind comments and encouragement. I'm really pleased with this muslin.

Katherine, I need to take out about 1cm on each side - which is the amount I added to the CF of this muslin. The muslin fits well around the tummy bulge but is too large immediately above it at the waist. I did not add to the waistband since it has a longish straight extension at the CF. It's always been like that - I just cut off as much of the straight part as necessary to make it fit the current jeans.

Pleated jeans! Oh no!  I remember them the first time they were "in", and in this case I will follow the rule about "If you can remember the first time something was fashionable, you shouldn't wear it the next time it becomes fashionable". I like 14oz denim and it does *not* look good when pleated!

Your suggestions are all good but I think I'll just remove the excess at the CF and live with a bit of tension across the tummy.

And I will indeed try to move the side seam forward about 2cm some time in the future. The jeans would be more flattering if I did. But that's in the future - I'm suffering from shellshock after all these muslins and just want to get to the end of the current process. There are signs of winter approaching and I need to get started on some winter sewing after the jeans are made.

(I plan to sew the fabulous cape that was in BWOF in 2007. I have a lovely scarlet cashmere blend that is crying out to become a cape.)

Elizabeth, thank you for your wise comment about stretch fabric and basting the side seams. It sounds like the voice of experience and I will certainly take your advice.

It will be interesting to see how the original differs from the final pattern. I have made a fresh pattern for each muslin so all the interim versions are available, each hanging up with its muslin. It will be a great pleasure to stuff them all into the recycling bin when I am sure they will not be needed again. (I write technical manuals for a living and I know from long experience that I should keep each draft of a manual until the project is definitely complete - it can be really helpful to be able to trace a problem back to its origin in an earlier draft.)

So. For the *last* (I hope) muslin, I will remove most of the fabric I added at the CF, move the back leg a tad, and make a tuck down the back leg to remove some of the bagginess.

Tomorrow I will go out to Textile Traders (my local fabric chain shop) to buy some cheap cheap fabric for the last muslin. There is no more muslin-quality non-stretch fabric in my stash.

Juliette

[JLCurtis]

Trumpet fanfare:

taDAAAAAAAAA!!!

Here is the last muslin. It has a few wrinkles, most of which were expected, and I'll be very happy with jeans made from this pattern.

Front:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p168/Juliette_026/frontgrey9.jpg

Side:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p168/Juliette_026/sidegrey9.jpg

Back:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p168/Juliette_026/backgrey9.jpg

This was the muslin where I made a vertical tuck down the back leg. It has removed the bagginess but introduced some wrinkles pointing to the inseam. I think I should add back half of the tuck at the inseam only. Moving the leg also made the back crotch hook more angled, and apparently this angle was too great.

The side view also shows that too much was removed in that tuck.

I am debating whether to remove the tuck entirely and go back to the fit of the previous muslin. Perhaps I have overfitted this muslin? We agreed in an earlier muslin that a looser fit is more flattering on me. I know this is a subjective question...

I'll let out the muslin at the inseam and see what that does to the fit. I clipped the inseam and the new seam will cross some of the clips but it might shed some light on this question.

The front shows horitzontal folds below the waistband, just as there were in an earlier muslin. They reappeared when I removed the extra fabric at the CF. OK, they are the compromise I have to make and I can live with them. They will be less evident in denim after it has been washed and worn a few times anyway.

There are still some wrinkles, as I knew there would always be, but the fit of these jeans is very much improved.

All comments gratefully received!

Juliette

[marciae]

You've made great progress!!   I couldn't - well wouldn't - have spent as much time as you did - you are to be commended!!  I know I'm sounding like a broken record - but - I think it's still too tight across the middle of the stomach - I think that is what's causing all the wrinkles.

And since I have a 'thing' about always wanting to try a new pants pattern (I think I own everyone ever made!! ) I want to throw this out - maybe a different pattern company would work better for you.  I used Burda for years quite sucessfully - but as I've "matured" and put on a few pounds I find that Vogue works better for me - - I have to do less fiddling.  SDBev said she used a Kwik Sew pattern (they've NEVER worked for me).  We've all made a few comments about a pattern block, etc - but thought I'd bring it up again.  I finally had to give up my burda jean pattern and the hot pattern jean pattern - I did manage to get both of them to fit - sort of - but Vogue and McCalls give me a fabulous fit.

[Katherine]

Congratulations on your progress!

The negative thing about the P&P tuck to get rid of bagginess is it takes the same amount off all the way up the pattern.  That means you have to go back & add it back to the upper portion that fit right before you did that.  When I did it I was able to add back at the side seams.  That's what P&P say you should do too.  Having said that, it doesn't look like adding to the side seams is going to get rid of those diagonal wrinkles.  It's possible that the center wasn't quite right before but it wasn't noticeable when they weren't as tight fitting.  If you look at the drawing in the book of the tuck & where it is, it didn't change anything about the crotch curve. 

Your side seam isn't straight.  It's possible that the back is stealing width from the front.  I looked back at the previous pictures you posted of the last muslin.  The angle of the picture was slightly different, but when I was looking for it, I think that side seam may not have been straight either.

When you made this last muslin, did you do anything to the crotch point & CB seam, other than change the shape of the inseam below the crotch point?  The other thing to consider is moving the leg towards the outseam decreases the length of the outseam & increases the length of the inseam.  Did you measure the inseam & restore it to it's previous length?  That shortening should occur at the top of the seam.  If you didn't do that, that's the first thing I'd do.  How you true up the pattern after an alteration can make a big difference in the shape of things.  Maybe you want the inseam to not curve so much.

It's possible that you might want less fabric removed in the tuck.  If you have big enough side seam allowances you should be able to check that in this muslin.

Then I'd check the CB seam slant.  Those upside down V shapes in the yoke look like they want more fabric in the center.  If you altered the yoke when you did the tuck you might have distorted something.  I would use the yole as it was in the last muslin if you changed it.

I don't know if I've helped much here.   

Katherine

[Karendee]

Congratulations on getting this far. I have watched the three of you (JLC, Marciae, and Katherine) labor over this and I comment you all.

Karen

[JLCurtis]

Today I played with pins and tried to improve this muslin. It's better but I might have to do another muslin.

*sigh*

Front:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p168/Juliette_026/front9pinned.jpg

Back:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p168/Juliette_026/back9pinned.jpg

Side:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p168/Juliette_026/side9pinned.jpg

Marciae, you are probably right about the tension across the front but I'm going to leave it. I tried a variety of alterations there but each of them caused more problems than it solved. I don't mind some tension there - it feels jeans-like to me.

Katherine, I did not change the crotch seam or yoke. I added back the needed width at the outseam. I did not shorten the inseam - I actually don't know how to do this without changing the crotch seam or undoing the alteration I just did.

I looked at the v wrinkles in the yoke. There is some ease at the back there so those wrinkles were puzzling. Then I noticed that the wrinkles existed even when the muslin was lying on the table with me glaring at it. So apparently this was not a fit problem. It turned out the CB seam in the yoke was slightly curved.  The wrinkles disappeared when I sewed that seam straight. So that problem had a simple fix. Hooray!

Those wrinkles under the waistband seem to be caused by excess vertical fabric. I tried in earlier muslins to move the waistband to a more flattering or more level location, but it didn't work. With any pants pattern, the muslin migrates to the same place on my body. If the pants don't agree with the waistband, the waistband always wins the argument and the pants get lots of wrinkles. That's what happened here. So I have given in to the waistband and removed the vertical fabric that was causing those wrinkles. It's pinned out in this muslin. It's not a perfect solution but it's better than it was.

I think that wrinkle on the left front is just random. From the way I was standing.

I let out the inseam by 1cm (3/8"). The wrinkles are still there but they are better. I have suspected for a while that the problems on the back leg originate with the inseam but I don't have any real evidence. Maybe the crotch hook is too curved. Here's the pattern of the back:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p168/Juliette_026/pattern-1.jpg

The curve under the hook has become quite sharp during the alterations. Also, the inseam is straight where the outseam is still curving inward. My legs taper on the outside and the inside, so perhaps I need to add to the upper part of the inseam so its taper looks more like the taper of the outseam. This is just a feeling - I can't give any sensible reason for wanting to do this.

And that's why I think I might need to do another muslin.

*sigh*

Juliette

[Katherine]

Juliette, this looks really good! 

I think you are right about what has happened to your inseam.  That's a pretty wicked looking curve! 

You might not need another muslin.  Just rip this one from just below the crotch point to the knee & see if that helps those wrinkles.  I've never been very successful in piecing another piece of fabric to a muslin, but you could try it.  It would be faster than yet one more muslin.  If you do it, be sure the grain of the extra piece matche the grain of the back.

I think you want the inseam to retain some curve, but straightening it some will help a lot, even if that's not the complete answer.

If that doesn't do it, measure the seamline of the pattern both front & back.  The back should be either the same or less than the front.  There is some disagreement between "experts" about whether you need the back to be 5/8" shorter than the front, easing the front to the back.

If it's more than the front, make a mark on the inseam seamline the amount that makes it either the same or 5/8" less.  I guess I'd go with the same to start.  You can make it shorter if you want without making a new muslin.  You can't make it longer.  Blend the crotch curve to meet that mark.

I think that in any pants style that you wear at the natural waist level you are going to have to do a fair bit of easing the front to the waistband because your shape curves sharply in there. 

Since you are happy with the way the waist fits, I'd go ahead & make them this way.  I'm not trying to talk you into changing it.  You mentioned earlier that no matter how low you cut the top of the pants the waistband creeps to the spot you're wearing these.  I suspect that's because they fit quite closely below that point & they were creeping towards the narrowest circumference.  Back when everyone wore pants sitting at the natural waist we eased them to the waistband.  Once the waist gets lower the lower seamline of the waistband equals the seamline of the pants with no easing.


Hang in there!  This looks so different from where you started.  I'm looking forward to seeing your finished jeans.

Katherine

[marciae]

Juliette - these look really good.  I've seen folks with a lot more wrinkles in the back than what you have and they think they have a fantastic fit!!!  I could liive with the fit you've accomplished.  AND - once you make a "good" pair some of the wrinkles may disappear and others show up!!  I've found every piece of denim I work with seems to be a bit different and the end result will vary a bit.  I always were my shirts out - don't know what your plan is.  Also, once you're moving, sitting, as long as you're comfortable with them that's really all that counts!

[tailored]

If that doesn't do it, measure the seamline of the pattern both front & back.  The back should be either the same or less than the front.  There is some disagreement between "experts" about whether you need the back to be 5/8" shorter than the front, easing the front to the back.

Here's my 2 cents about that....now, I do menswear but bear with me....
When the back of a pants pattern is drafted, the back crotch point extends further along the crotch level line than the front crotch point. When you draw in the back inseam from the knee to that back crotch point level , it becomes longer than the front inseam length, because it has further to travel. It also is more on the bias. That is why in the drafting books that back crotch point is lowered, below the drafted crotch line to make both the inseams either the same or quite similar in length
I find though, that the longer the back crotch extension gets, the more on the bias the back inseam is. As you know, bias stretches and in loosely woven or drapey fabrics it will stretch even more, so that is why the back inseam is shortened anywhere from 1 to 1.5 cm compared to the front inseam. Otherwise you get unattractive draping happening along the back inseam. Yuck!
Does that make sense? 'cause that's my theory and I'm stickin' with it!!

[JLCurtis]

I ripped out the inseam and DH, lovely patient man that he is, took another photo of me:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p168/Juliette_026/unstitchedinseam.jpg

This seems to confirm the inseam theory. There are a few random wrinkles but the real wrinkles are much reduced.

I'm happy enough with this muslin that I will go ahead and make real jeans. A few wrinkles remain but I can live with them, and continue to tweak in future versions of the jeans. When I wear these jeans, I will be confident that the are the best-fitting jeans I can make. The will be much better than any RTW on me, and much better than RTW jeans on many of the women I see at the train station on the way to work 

Thank you, Katherine and Tailored, for the explanations about the back inseam. It certainly makes sense.

As well as the other alterations on this muslin, I'll add to the inseam and straighten that curve before I cut the denim. I'll make the back inseam a bit shorter than the front, since denim is flexible and the back crotch will still be quite bias.

It will be at least two weeks before the jeans will be done. I'm a slow sewer, and there is a black skirt that I *must* finish before I start on these jeans.

What a demanding process this has been! I'm very grateful for the kind advice, help and moral support you have all given me. I would never have achieved such a good fit without help, and I would have given up 5 muslins ago without the encouragement. I have learned so much through this process, it's quite amazing. I've learned a lot about fabric, grain, fitting my body, the challenge of shaping 2-dimensional fabric around a 3-dimensional body, and more.

Thank you very much.

Juliette

[marciae]

Look very good.  In 'regular' denim it will stretch a bit as you wear.  And I totally agree about RTW jeans - I'm alwlays amazed at what some women purchase and wear - and pay big $$ for also! Again, I commend you for "staying the course"!!

[ejvc]

Juliette, you did a really great job.  Many congratulations.  These will be so great when you make them up in denim and topstitch them.  Look on the Sharing, Inspiration and Projects thread for Miranda's new jeans with excellent back pockets for some pocket inspiration!

I am LOVING finally having trousers that fit.  I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

Elizabeth

[Katherine]

Contratulations!  These look really good.  I would cut them in your denim & wear them before doing anything else too.  I'm with marciae on what people will wear.  Sometimes I think they never looked in the mirror at the back view. 

I'm looking forward to seeing the next photos. 

Katherine

[Karendee]

JL,

Yes, congratulations are in order. I have followed you 3 or 4 every step of the way and my hat's off to all of you. Juliette, for doing the work and Katherine and  Marciae  for never continuing with your aid. I know others have helped along the way, also. This is a great pair of jeans and you all should be proud, IMO.

Karen

[JLCurtis]

Well, here are my new jeans at last.

Not perfect, they have the same wrinkles as the last muslin, but so much better than the starting point. I am *thrilled* with them.

Front:


Side:


Back:


I'm  going to remove the left back pocket and re-attach it. It's not even with the right pocket. Adding darts to the back makes it much harder to attach the back pockets evenly because the back is no longer flat after the darts are stitched. I'll spend some time with the back pattern piece and add more markings so it is easier to place the pocket accurately.

Next time I make jeans from this pattern, I will add a little more to the back crotch hook and back inseam. It should reduce the wrinkles under the seat.

The jeans are a bit big around the waist but, hey, that's what belts are for, right? They are also a bit long, which is deliberate to allow for residual shrinkage.

The grain is straight. 

Thank you all for your help in this long long fitting saga. Special thanks to Marciae, Katherine and ejvc. I am grateful for your kind advice, help, and moral support. I'll continue to tweak this pattern but the majority of the fitting work is done and is a great success. I am so pleased with my new jeans.


edited by Liana to fix the last link and by Lisa to add image tags around the links

[Katherine]

Your jeans look great!  The design on your back pockets is great.  You did a nice job of all that topstitching!

How does the crotch area feel?  Unless they feel tight there, I don't think adding to the crotch point will help.  It might make it worse.  I think the slant of the CB seam is a likely culprit.

One thing I sometimes do when I'm trying to figure out how to fix something is to pin the fold out on the fabric.  Then I trace off that section of the pattern on other paper, or draw it smaller.  When I was using pattern drafting software I would just print the piece scaled to fit the page.  Then I draw the shape of the tuck on the small scale pattern & rough cut it out.  Then I slash the tuck to colapse it together to see what the new pattern piece would look like.  You can see what else gets distorted, giving you an idea of what else you might need to change.

Katherine

[Karendee]

I think you have made a wonderful pair of jeans; I applaud all of your effort. You will probably be a little happier when the washing/drying procedure shortens and tightens them just a tad, but I am much impressed. I have followed every step of the way, even though I had no tips (but encouragement) to give. I just don't know enough about fitting jeans.

Karen

[marciae]

Your jeans are looking great!  I, too, applaud all your efford to work out the fitting! You've done a great job - the topstitching looks excellent.  Enjoy your success!!

How does the crotch area feel?  Unless they feel tight there, I don't think adding to the crotch point will help.  It might make it worse.  I think the slant of the CB seam is a likely culprit.

Katherine

Katherine your comment interested me  - - it looks to me like the crotch length is still too short, thus causing the pulling.  I would NOT add to the crotch point, but rather "scoop" out some in the seat - and maybe remove some from the crotch point??.  The left side looks good so I'm assuming part of the wrinkle in the right is from the way she's standing.

I used a Burda pattern from a year ago - think it might have been in Aug of 2007?? - - cant remember - but for some reason I had excess fabric under my bottom - it looked as though I needed a flat butt adjustment!!

[Katherine]

Marciae, we may be thinking the same thing.  Scooping the crotch seam if done on lower vertical part will straighten the CB a bit.  It will also increase the negative space, which may not be right  That's why I asked if the crotch felt tight. 

If the crotch doesn't feel tight, I'd straighten the CB by adding fabric widthwise at the top of the CB & taking that amount away at the side to keep the same waist measurement.

What I was getting to yesterday about playing with paper is the fold looks like it's going from the inseam just below the crotch to the pocket point.  If you pin that out & transfer it to the paper tracing, cut that out & push it together it's going to bring the crotch curve down & make the CB seam more vertical.

Photos give a specific point in time, & don't always give the whole story.  They don't tell you how they feel.

Before you do anything else, please wear & enjoy your new jeans.  More than anything else we make, jeans are going to change with wear.  You are going to look great in them!

Katherine

[marciae]

Thanks Katherine - we are thinking the same thing - just "talking" different!

And yes, Jeans change as we wear them whether it's some we've made or purchased!  I can control the ones I make a bit better by the fabric I choose, however.

[JLCurtis]

I think those photos make the wrinkles look more pronounced than they do in real life. There certainly are wrinkles but they are subtle, and there are fewer wrinkles than in any jeans I've ever had. I've been admiring my jeans in mirrors and feeling pleased with the (relatively) smooth line. The fuller leg works really well for me - much better than the narrow leg.

As I have worn the jeans, they have settled a bit lower on my hips, which is where they were really supposed to be. That increases the ease in the crotch seam and reduces the wrinkles. The jeans were hitched up a bit high when DH took the photos. And now they are sitting lower, there are fewer wrinkles.

There is plenty of ease in the crotch and inseam, now that they are sitting where they are supposed to be. I'll try scooping out the back crotch a bit more  and straightening the CB a bit more as Katherine suggests -- next time I make these jeans. And it will be a while before I feel strong enough, I think!

I also plan to try the Hot Patterns jeans with the L-shaped crotch seam. The Razor Sharp pants have that seam and it works really well on me. I'll probably try to morph the two patterns, using the front and side seams of these jeans and the back of the HP jeans. And the Petite Plus jeans pattern has a crotch seam that looks very promising, and princess seams that offer great opportunities for fitting. But not just yet...

I am so *pleased* with these jeans! They are a shape that really flatters my figure and I feel attractive, feminine and comfortable in them. I can't ask for better than that! It was hard to keep going through all those muslins but it was worth the effort. This jeans pattern is going into the TNT box.

Thank you again for all your kind advice. I could never have achieved such a good outcome without help.

[marciae]

I am so *pleased* with these jeans! They are a shape that really flatters my figure and I feel attractive, feminine and comfortable in them. I can't ask for better than that! It was hard to keep going through all those muslins but it was worth the effort. This jeans pattern is going into the TNT box.

Thank you again for all your kind advice. I could never have achieved such a good outcome without help.

Definitely a TNT - isn't it great to wear jeans that actually fit!!