Buttonholes - Welt or Machine? (was a lining/underlining thread originally)

[Elle]

I didn't want to start a new thread because a lot of the pics are here, so please bear with me and scroll down to the buttonhole question.  Thanks!

Hello, I am participating in the June Capsule Contest and am making two skirts to coordinate with one jacket.  Eventually, I’ll make another skirt out of a print that includes black (strictly verboten for the JCC).  My question is what is the best way to line these skirt given the fabrics, types of skirts, and my laziness.

I am using Advance 7894 as my pattern. 



As you can see, it includes the jacket and two skirt, one a narrow skirt and the other a wide skirt.  For the narrow skirt, I will be using a medium-weight linen.  The wide skirts are being made out sheer polyester chiffons, but once I get these out of the way (wardrobe building for work!), I’ll make more out of nice silk fabrics.



So, do I make one narrow slip that can be used for all three, in which case it will be a separate slip?  Or will that look odd with the wide skirts in the chiffon?  I’m starting to lean towards a silk organza underlining with seam finishes for the narrow linen skirt, but the irony is that the silk organza costs more than the linen!  I have been reading how this cuts down on wrinkling, so it would be a good thing for a work suit and I could practice some of the underlining techniques that I have been reading about, with enclosed seams. 

Then I would make another slip to go with the wide skirts, out of navy ambiance to match the Hong Kong seam finishes on the jacket (which I am SO proud of  ).  Again, because I’m lazy, I would just make one and change it out between skirts as I wore them. 

I’d appreciate any suggestions, TIA! 

~ Elle

[Karendee]

Elle,

Sorry I don't have an answer, but I will watch to see what is recommended for the chiffon fuller skirt. I have 3 pieces of beautiful, translucent silk organza that I have been unable to finalize linings for. These wonderful fabrics were purchased for a reasonable price, so I hate to spend more on the lining that the fashion fabric. And in my case, one slip for all the skirts would not work color-wise.

So, thanks for asking your question; I shall await the answers.

Karend

[BeeBee]

An idea for a "stand alone" slip would be a narrow slip with wide slits on both sides, well above the knees.  I have a RTW silk skirt with wide pleats that did that.  Just a simple pencil style, shorter than the skirt, but with walking slits on BOTH sides and pretty high, so it doesn't take away from the fullness of the skirt.

[Elle]

Karend, your silk organza pieces sound gorgeous, I am getting back into sewing and fitting and will be working my way up to that quality of fabric.  I look forward to seeing what you do with your fabric.

BeeBee, thanks for your suggestion re the slip with side slits.  I'm going to give that some thought.  One thing I worry about it too much leg showing, because the organza is very sheer and I plant to wear these skirts at my conservative workplace.  But maybe if the slip had overlapping panels, so that it could move but still provide cover.  I vaguely recall seeing a pattern like that.

Elle

[Liana]

Elle,  I think your 1 slip for all 3 sounds good, but I'd go with a slip that more closely matches the silhouette of the skirts themselves since the fabric is so sheer.  I just think it's going to emphasize the difference in the shape of the slip and the skirt more than you want to to otherwise.  The only reason I'd go for underlining rather than a slip would be to get more body in the skirt, but with chiffon I agree you're much better off to go with its own properties and capitalize on them.  You could do a slip with a little more body or structure to it if you want that kind of silhouette.  It might be a fun option anyway, and if you do a slip, you could always do two, in different styles.    One could be either a crinoline-type, or just a little horsehair in the hem or something. 

[Elle]

Liana, thanks for your comments, and I have worked myself around to at least two slips:  one for the pegged skirt and another for the wide skirts. 

I had toyed with the idea of horsehair braid around the wide skirt and/or slip to make them stand out more, like the illustration, but I got a strange visualization.  Like the tent top where the sides drape inwards on the way down to the sides that hold it out taunt.  Not very clear, I know.  Anyway, nice on a tent, maybe a little strange on a skirt.  Have you used the horsehair braid on hems of sheer fabrics?  I'd be interested in seeing a pic if you have one somewhere.  I've seen polyester horsehair braid at Joann's, would that be what to use, or is there a better online source for something closer to the real thing?

BTW, I was helped in my decision to make at least two slips by finding more of the navy Ambiance at Joann's yesterday . . . at $3.00 per yard!  We couldn't believe it at the cutting table because it wasn't marked for sale, but a lot of their stuff is 60% off this week and that's what this was discounted at.  I'm going back for more Ambiance today, in all sorts of colors.

Regards,
Elle

[Elle]

I'm at the point where I should work on the buttonholes.  Although I had planned to make welt buttonholes (another first for me), I did not do that when the instructions said so, which was very early in the process.  This is because I did an FBA and wanted to make sure that the fit was correct and the buttonholes would be in the right place.



So now I'm sort of satisfied with fit; I think my quibbles have to do with this style, which is raglan.  (My form is about 20 years out of date, I fill the jacket out more than she does, drat.  Working on that.)

At this point, with the facing on, the instructions say I'm ready to do a machine stitched buttonhole, if I chose that option.  But I still want to practice welt buttonholes, and that would be more in keeping with the era.  I looked up a few references, and they all say to do the welt buttonholes before the facing is on.  How critical is this?  Will the welt buttonholes still look right if I do them now that the jacket is almost fully construct?

See my pretty Hong Kong seams?  Another first, I'm so happy with them.



Thanks,
Elle

[Ms. Fine Fabrics]

The welt buttonholes are made on the outside fabric. The facing is then slit in perfect placement under the bound buttonhole, and finished with a little roll hem by hand -- as a secondary step after the buttonhole construction is complete. Otherwise, the buttonhole finishing construction would show on the inside.

It is much easier to hold your welt stitches straight and steady, if working with a flat piece of fabric. You can make them later, at the point you are on with your jacket, but you will have to open the facing and pull it away from the outside fabric. That is a little more difficult to negotiate.

I am at the point to make the buttonholes on my black jacket -- for sometime now -- and I always hold  my breath. Bound buttonholes give an unmistakable couture touch when done right, but mine I rarely perfect. I am really, really, really trying to make my basic black jacket perfect.

I love a garment finished with Hong Kong seams. It is my favorite method. It feels so good when you put on a garment with such a classy finish on the inside. Good job!

[Liana]

Elle,  I have no experience with horsehair braid on a sheer, and I have to admit that I had the same mental picture you did, sort of a lampshade effect or something.    I do think a slip with a little oomph would be nice under that skirt, but I think you should wait and see what you think of it without.  At the time that pattern was sold, it was most common to wear more than one slip under a skirt like that.  You might want something with a crinoline effect under the ambiance slip.  If you make it with a fitted yoke (you could even use a knit for the yoke) it won't add bulk at the hip.  Then add tiers of ruffles starting at the bottom with larger ones and going up.  They can be nylon tulle for a very bouffant effect, or whatever you think will give you the look you want.  Gather more or less for more or less pouf.  I know I saw a long blog post somewhere about doing this, and it's not rocket science.  You want any scratchy stuff between this slip and another layer, like the ambiance slip.  You can make it as decorative as you like.  Could be fun!

I agree with Susanne on the bound buttonholes.  If this is your first try on them and you're worried about it, this might not be the time to try.  You could do hand-worked buttonholes, and Mary Ellen Flury suggests another option is to do machine buttonholes, then go over them with hand buttonhole stitch for a hand-worked look with more security.  If you're using very large buttons, you may want to do covered snaps for the actual closure and that would moot the whole buttonhole problem anyway. 

HTH! 

[ejvc]

Elle,

What a pretty jacket! 

I think that I would consider hand-sewn buttonholes as an alternative.  Ms Fine Fabrics spells out the difficulties of welting - and your first welted buttonholes - on the pre-contstructed jacket.  But perhaps a hand buttonhole, esp keyhole buttonholes, would also be classy and provide a nice finish?  I've done several tops with hand-buttonholes back when I only had a straight-stitch machine, and they aren't super hard if you are the kind of person who likes detail.  Do a couple to practice first, of course.

Also wanted to flag up this nice tutorial/description on bound buttonholes from Shannon, which might be helpful in making your decision: http://hungryzombiecouture.blogspot.com/2008/03/orange-you-glad-you-asked-part-2.html.

[BetsyV]

Elle

MsFineFabrics, Liana and EJVC are all right and I agree with recommending hand-worked buttonholes.

I went ahead and made welt (or bound) buttonholes on a jacket after putting the facings on and inserting the lining, and they are beautiful from the front (IMNSHO!) and a really embarrassing mess from the back. I keep saying to myself I will at least undo the welts on the back and try to make them smaller by wrapping around a toothpick or something, but I haven't done it yet and I finished the suit 18 months ago. And have worn it many times. I just leave the jacket on so no one else sees the messy buttonholes but me. 

Practice the handworked ones a couple of times to get the rythm of the stitch in sync and they'll be beautiful - especially if you work them in a slightly shiny embroidery floss or actual, real, silk buttonhole twist.

I love the jacket, and I am very glad to know my dress form isn't the only one 20 years out of date 

[Robin]

Thanks for moving this into its own topic.  Lots of good questions and answers that I missed in the JCC thread.
Elle, that is such a pretty pattern and your blue jacket & sheer chiffon skirt look really nice.
I also need to learn how to make pretty welt buttonholes.
When I was confronted with a similar situation, I sewed a machine button-hole, then added a layer of hand stitching over that.
I liked the effect and it wasn't too difficult to pull off.

[Elle]

Thank you so much for all the comments here re welt versus machine buttonholes.  The combination of machine and then hand finished is something I hadn't considered, that sounds like an interesting option.

Since my last post, I have been doing extensive research in various buttonhole styles, all without having to leave my house or order another book from Amazon.  Because I already have most of them  .  At least two of them mention machine+hand finished and provide detailed instructions, so I'm all set to practice that.

Those books and others gave many different ways of doing welt buttonholes, and I think I'm going to practice a few of them also on scraps with fused interfacing.  Sooner or later, they'll come in handy.  I already have the scraps with interfacing from my interfacing tests.

"Tailoring:  The Classic Guide to Sewing the Perfect Jacket" by Creative Publishing International discusses both approaches (welt and machine+hand) with detailed instructions and very clear illustrations (pp 116-119).  It also says to do welt buttonholes before you sew on the facing, do machine+hand afterwards.

"Vogue Sewing, Revised and Updated" has multiple ways to do bound buttonholes (five-line patch method, organza patch method, one-piece folded method, two-piece method, and options to add cording to each) at pp. 266-270.  I found these more confusing because there are far fewer illustrations, and they are drawings instead of photographs.  It says in the first sentence to make bound buttonholes before attaching the facing.

"Sewing Secrets from the Fashion Industry," edited by Susan Huxley, addresses one type of bound buttonhole, using a folded patch at pp. 92-94.  This is the same approach as in the "Tailoring" book above, and also has lots of nice pictures plus some helpful tips on how to approach each step.  There is a page that goes into completing the facing with a slash, or eye slit, finish (p. 95).  There is also a page on completing the facing with a windowpane finish, for that uber-couture look (my phrase, not SSFI's).  My jacket is designed to wear open, so I'm not so worried about how the inside will look, probably would settle for the slash finish just to have a hope of finishing the JCC in time.

Adele P. Margolis in "the Complete Book of Tailoring" at pp. 307 through 315 discusses both the one-strip method (her term for the folded patch) and the two-strip method.  I had just been wondering which was better, and there she says right on p. 311:  "This one-strip method of making a bound buttonhole is basic, easy, and practically foolproof."  She could be talking to me.  She then goes on to say in the next paragraph:  "In all honesty, however, one must admit that in very heavy or very sheer materials it is very difficult to handle the tiny strips produced by Method I.  For such Fabrics, the two-strip method of making a bound buttonhole is preferable."  I love the way Adele P. Margolis writes.  She still feels vital today, and this book is dated 1978.  I believe it is Kenneth King who pointed people towards her, saying that so much of what is being written today is derivative of her work.  I was sad to see that Ms. Margolis states authoritatively on p. 307 that "Bound buttonholes are always made on the garment before the facing is turned back or attached."

Shannon has a nice tutorial on the two-strip method, and I'd be interested to hear from her if she has used both and prefers one over the other for various types of fabric, or sticks with the two-strip method.

Now, I've admitted that my facing is attached, so why am I still reading up on bound buttonholes?  Because I want to try them on this jacket.  Fools rush in, etc. etc.

All it took was one reference to give me hope.  Claire Shaeffer, who discussed the patch method for bound buttonholes at p. 87 of "Couture Sewing Techniques" and the two-strip method at p. 89* says on page 86 the following:  "In home sewing and ready-to-wear production, bound buttonholes are made on the garment section before the garment is assembled.  In couture, the buttonhole locations and even the buttonhole size may not be finally decided until after the sections are sewn together and the garment's finished length is determined. . .  If the garment is already machine-stitched, it's somewhat more cumbersome, but the buttonholes can nonetheless be completed without difficulty."  Ahhhhh.  That describes my whole approach to this jacket -- although "clueless" is probably a more accurate description of my work method than "couture".  The facing is easily folded out, so I continue to consider this approach.  Accuracy in marking will be the difficult step.

* Claire goes into much more detail on the two-strip technique, with pictures, in the book, "High Fashion Sewing Secrets from the World's Best Designers" at pp. 105-108.  She has you complete each step for all buttonholes, before proceeding to the next step.  Claire also discusses the windowpane opening in this book at pp. 60-62, which had me furrowing my brow in confusing.  Maybe it would be clearer with practice.

I'm going to practice the patch and two-strip methods, and if I go down in flames, I'll do machine+hand buttonholes.  Although I must admit that machine buttonholes just scare me.  It feels so out of control.

One last option:  The inimitable Roberta Carr presents another approach to the bound buttonhole.  She discusses the "Spanish Snap Buttonhole" at p. 187 of her lovely book, "Couture, the Art of Fine Sewing".  Here is what she says enticingly about the Spanish snap buttonhole: 

"Frequently used by the designers, this buttonhole has very thin lips that can hardly be seen, I like to call them "invisible" bound buttonholes.  The advantage of a Spanish snap buttonhole is that it can be made very small -- as one might use on a silk blouse.  On the other hand, Spanish snap buttonholes are equally effective used on a tweed or nubby fabric with the lips made from wool flannel or worsted." 

So I'll practice those too, using the making the lips from both my fashion fabric (a rather light linen/tencel blend) and from the navy ambiance that I used for the Hong Kong seam finishes.  Unless someone warns me away from either, or suggests a third, superior alternative.  What about navy organza, which I happen to have?

I hope that this summary is useful to others, I know that I am really interested in trying at least three of these approaches on scraps (patch, two-strip and Spanish snap), and perhaps if one looks nice, then I will recreate a strip of the front with facing attached, and practice on that.  If I can get them looking halfway decent, I'll move on to my jacket.  If not, machine+hand.

I did make significant progress on my straight linen/tencel skirt today, which fits quite well, so I still have a chance of finishing the JCC.  I need to cut out the lining, but first I have to figure out if I will stick with the pattern directions (separate waistband) or do a faced waistband with lining hanging from the facing.  I'm also interested in elastic in the back to help with changing waist measurements.   Lastly, I may want to add a top to the lining/skirt for structure and not having to think in the morning about what to throw on under the suit.  I can also sew dress shields to the top part of the lining. Claire Shaeffer shows a gorgeous example of this at p. 102 of her "Couture Sewing Techniques" book but without how-to instructions.  Does one make the one-piece slip (top and skirt) and then attach the skirt to the waist?

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to read this thread and offer me your thoughts.  I thought it was really neat to read them and see them echoed in my books; you bring the books to life.

Regards,
Elle

P.S.  Just in case anyone is interested, "Tailoring, Traditional and Contemporary Techniques," has very nice discussions of three types of "fabric" buttonholes (which they acknowledge are traditionally called "bound" buttonholes but are really piped or corded):  (1) the five-line patch, (2) the butterfly with a faced opening, and (3) the corded trips.  They give some suggested variations and discuss the advantages and limitations of each method.  Essentially, I could spend the rest of June exploring just the stuff in pp. 155-168 of this book.  They provide four guidelines, including "complete one buttonhole at a time".  But two other references said to work on all buttonholes at once, doing each step on all buttonholes at the same time for uniformity.  The latter makes more sense to me, any thoughts?

[Elle]

I love the jacket, and I am very glad to know my dress form isn't the only one 20 years out of date 

BetsyV, do you keep hoping your dress form will once again be an accurate reflection?  I do, but it is quite misleading now.  Makes a handy hanger, though. ~ Elle

[BetsyV]

Elle

do you keep hoping your dress form will once again be an accurate reflection?

FUNNY! No, I realize gravity has had an irreversible effect on my anatomy, and no matter how much time I spend at the gym, and how much weight I lose or gain, or size, or inches, the fact remains: Mabel is just "perkier" than I am in a few key ways. Fortunately, she is made of foam rubber, and a new cover wrestled onto her should do the trick, even if I have to add some padding here and there, or scoop some out and move it elsewhere.

Many thanks for the bibliography, too. I have a couple of those references, including Roberta Carr on DVD, deomnstrating the spanish snap buttonhole.

[fzxdoc]

It's so much fun to see the completed projects come together!  Congratulations to all who have finished! 

Elle, thank you for the extensive bibliography and abstracts of the sections on bound buttonholes.  I have almost all of those sources that you quote.  And it's nice to know which one has what approach.  I'm going to copy and paste your summary into a Word file of sewing methods that I keep on my computer.  Thank you so much for doing such fine research!  Your jacket will turn out lovely, whichever method you choose, I'm sure. 

Kathryn

[Elle]

Kathryn, you're welcome and of course you must modify to suit your purposes, which I plan to do, including pictures so that I have everything in one place.  If I can included good photos of my own and thereby not violate copyrights, I'll make it available to all.  This presumes that I'll get good enough to make pretty buttonholes.

I must say that I could have taken a short cut and just focused on the two resources you mention in your how to jacket blog!  I thanked you elsewhere for providing such a detailed teaching experience.  I hope you don't mind if I paste your entire how-to into a Word document and use it as the basis for my jacket making template.

There are so many things to remember, so many decisions points along the way, that I can't keep it all in my head.  I need a checklist approach (considering interlining now; experiment with interfacing on 6"x9" garment fabric samples now; welt buttonholes now; reinforce shoulder seams if needed now, etc. etc.)  Your steps and the decision points you made along the way is a terrific way to organize this.  I'm thinking a decision tree* that I can tack onto my wall and follow as I work on a jacket (or skirt, or whatever -- one for each). 

Regards,
Elle

* My daughter would probably turn it into a Powerpoint presentation, which is an intriguing thought.  Illustrations!

[fzxdoc]

Elle, I am both flattered and happy that my Jacket "How-To" 'blog has helped you make some decisions for your jacket.  It makes me feel good that I can in some way repay your wonderful bound buttonhole bibliography.  I really enjoy thorough research on a topic, and you certainly provided that!

Please feel free to copy whatever you like from my 'blog.  As I said, I'm flattered that you like it!    And a decision-tree sounds like a great idea! (I need a lightbulb icon here.) 

Kathryn

[BeeBee]

If you have/use an older buttonholer, you can do a two step process that looks really nice and is in the spirit of the era of the jacket.  You do the first round with a wide bite and then a second round with a more narrow bite.  This produces a layered look, is very durable and really pretty.  It was a tailoring techique often used in the late 40's to 50's - it gives a hand tailored look.  If you really want to go all out with this process, you can change thread colors for round 2.  Also experiment with wide first/narrow second vs. narrow then wide. 

[AnnRowley]

If you have/use an older buttonholer, you can do a two step process that looks really nice and is in the spirit of the era of the jacket.  You do the first round with a wide bite and then a second round with a more narrow bite.  This produces a layered look, is very durable and really pretty.  It was a tailoring technique often used in the late 40's to 50's - it gives a hand tailored look.  If you really want to go all out with this process, you can change thread colors for round 2.  Also experiment with wide first/narrow second vs. narrow then wide. 

Although I've been sewing forever this is the first time I've come across this idea. And I can't wait to try it!!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[AnnRowley]

And here are the first results! Just playing on interfaced calico/muslin...

                   

My first thought was to use the round end buttonhole but I found that my Pfaff CV machine didn't have a narrow enough setting for this to work.
So I tried with the simple square end with better results.

                   

For these I  stitched the first round  8.5 wide, then again at 3.0 in a contrast colour.  Density for both 0.7.     Definitely  an idea to work on!

Thanks again BeeBee!

[BeeBee]

You're welcome, Ann.  How kewl - I helped you    LOL.  And while I'd LOVE to take the credit, I must pass this on to Singer - it's a technique in the book on how to use the buttonholer.
I like your results, since you used an extreme contrast you can really see the differences - I especially like the really wide with the very narrow, very distictive.  The ones I did, I didn't go so extreme.  Higher density might look better, or maybe more polished. I suppose it depends on your usage.  The looser one could be good on a Boucle or sweater knit or a "crafty" project.  Less contrast could make a buttonhole really blend to the fabric - I'm thinking tweed, busy print or bloucle or such.  Twice outside and once more inside for a coat that would get a lot of button wear. 

[Elle]

BetsyV, I thought I was safe from Amazon, but no.  Ms. Carr's DVD is in my basket; I'm dithering over another book.

Kathryn, many thanks for your permission to "borrow" from your blog.  I am tempted to abandon my JCC and start right now on the decision tree.  Such a short attention span.  Maybe it is because I am at the point in the jacket where I really must decide on buttonholes.  Made the buttons last night (self-fabric covered Dritz), so there's no excuse for further delay.  And no need, now!

BeeBee and Ann, I think you've helped me with my decision.  Ann's "stitched the first round  8.5 wide, then again at 3.0 in a contrast colour.  Density for both 0.7" look terrific.  I'm going to play with this tonight.  Thanks for the precise settings, Ann, although unfortunately my Janome doesn't do 8.5 wide.  7 will have to do.

~ Elle