What's my point?

[vtmartha]

Can anyone help me find my shoulder point, please?  I keep poking and prodding my shoulder looking for it (the point!) with no success.  I am taking a set in sleeve class with Sarah Veblen at PR.  I drew a line on my muslin where I thought the armscye seam should be and, low and behold, ended up with a dropped sleeve.  I could consult with Sarah but our discussion group expired some time ago and I'm not sure how long she will be available.  This is not the first time I have struggled with this so I would like to put it to rest.
Thanks for your help. 

[AnnRowley]

This is always a difficult one - and it depends to a certain extent on how well your shoulder bone is "padded".

There are several ways to find this rather elusive point but this is the one I use.

Stand up and raise your right arm out to the side - not forward - until is is parallel to the floor.
Now put your left fingers where you think the shoulder joint is  - you won't fell much at this stage.
Now slowly lower your right arm and you should be aware of the "hinge" as it moves down.  Do this several times and you should be able to identify the point where the top of the shoulder joins the arm - this is what you want.

It depends a bit on your personal anatomy and posture, but on me this point is slightly towards the back. Yours may be in a slightly different position.

This sounds like an awful lot of words - but I hope it helps.

[BetsyV]

Martha I took that class, too, and used exactly Ann's (and Sarah's) method for finding that shourlder point.

I have to say it wasn't quite right on me, I think because I have large muscular ( ) biceps, and I need the seam to lie beyond that hinge-point or the sleeves just don't hang, forget about hanging properly. I use a point nearly 1/2" past that, which makes the shoulder seam nearly 6" on me. Very wide, in other words, wider than the usual size 16, which is ludicrous on me everywhere else (except my hips!).

It seems you might have muscular biceps, with the horse thing and all. Try to take the shoulder point out from the hinge (extend the shoulder seam) and make plenty of muslins. Or just use really big seam allowances until you are happy with how the sleeve hangs.

I am still working on it. I have the perfect suit jacket sleeve (for me) now but haven't got a blouse sleeve right yet. I may have to go with a 2-piece sleeve for blouses. The perfect jacket sleeve pattern came from a suit pattern I bought in the mid-1980's, the heyday of the "power suit" with monstrous shoulders. Of course I don't put huge shoulder pads in but I take advantage of the wider shoulder seams.

[Terri]

Kenneth King (on his Moulage DVD) says that the shoulder measurement is often over measured, and that the average shoulder length is about 4 1/2 inches. Mine is much wider, and I have used the same method for checking. At first I thought I'd measured incorrectly (because it was too long), but it just is that long. I also checked against other garments with set insleeves that fit well - measuring from the seam line to the neck edge; where I have a necklace placed. - and confirmed I have broad shoulders.

Addtionally, the problem of forward shoulders changes the pattern draft. This is covered well in Fit for Real people, and once I started altering for this, my fit improved dramatically.

[judith]

Ann, what a great explanation. If I'd read that years ago, I could have saved so much angst as I struggled through two frustrating experiences with pattern drafting software. Thanks for answer (and Martha, thanks for asking).

[Vicki]

This is interesting.  I had measured mine using the dimple that forms when i raise my arm.  I get 12cm - 4.7inches.  I thought I had narrow shoulders - but maybe not?

I tried Ann's method of raising and lowering my arm and I can't find a hinge

[AnnRowley]

Vicki, it's too cold here for me to take my sweater off and see if I have a dimple!  But what ever works for you...

Burda WOF bases its patterns on a shoulder width of 12cm for sizes 34 to 38, 13cm for sizes 40 to 46  and 14cm  for 48 to 52.

I consider myself to be narrow in the shoulder - and back - and narrow my size 40 by 1cm .

I feel that the precise measurement is also linked to neck size; measuring from the base of a skinny neck will give a longer length than if you have a thicker neck.
So really the total back width  is just as important.

[kbenco]

I am much better at anatomy and bony palpation than sewing so please excuse me for butting in if the two do not connect here.

Anatomically, the upper part of the shoulder blade, where it hooks over to meet the end of the collar bone is the point of the shoulder. I think what Ann is talking about as the hinge is the junction between the collar bone and the hook of the shoulder blade. When your arm is raised to the side, at around 90 degrees, the collar bone rotates slightly and glides backwards,  Vicki, if you can't find this point, and you have a dimple at the back, you probably need to raise your arm to the side and  slightly backwards in order to feel this movement, as the dimple at the back means that the ball of the arm bone is forward in the socket, which pushes the arm bone in front of the joint between the shoulder blade and collarbone. The dimple will be slightly more lateral than the end of the collar bone, so measuring here will give you slightly wider shoulders. Martha I also think it is easiest to find the point of the shoulder if you start at where the collar bone meets the sternum, and then feel outwards to the end of the collar bone. The anatomical point is about 1 finger's width back and up from the end of the bone.This is pretty easy to feel and is even easier if the arm is held up as if you are stopping traffic, so the ball of the arm bone is well out of the way. There is a picture of the  bony shoulder joint here

[Doris W. in TN]

Kenneth King (on his Moulage DVD) says that the shoulder measurement is often over measured, and that the average shoulder length is about 4 1/2 inches. Mine is much wider, and I have used the same method for checking.

I took KK's Moulage workshop and rolled my eyes when he told us that about the shoulder measurement.  Mine is much longer, too.  Finally the person who brought him to town (and was signing his paycheck) suggested to KK that he check my shoulder length (she was my neighbor and personally aware of my fitting issues)  and he had to admit mine was longer by 1/2".   Even at that,   I extend the shoulder mark a little beyond what he allowed for my moulage.

This is one of the most difficult aspects of fitting, IMO,  and will drive me to madness if I allow it.   At times I'll study photos and find out 'exactly where does that bodice/sleeve seam sit on that model?....'

[Vicki]

Thanks Kbenco!  I think I have it.  It is so hard to feel under the muscle - all that hard work at the gym is paying off!  I measure now 11.5 cms.  And there is another 2.5cm to the end of my shoulder when my arm is down.  Does that sound about right?

[sew_k]

If I am understanding it correctly, the "Wild Bunch" (creators of Pattern Master Boutique from Wild Ginger) suggest that most women have a shoulder length of 5" and it would be unusual to have a measurement much different than this.

My shoulders are so bony (not so with the rest of me!) that the shoulder point is easy to find.  I have more trouble determining the correct slope for the shoulders.

[kbenco]

With all respect to Wild Ginger, I look at shoulders all day long  - mostly uncovered, and I think there is considerable variation. The shoulder is a very mobile joint, held in position as much by the muscles as by the ligaments, so even if the bones are the same length or proportion to each other (and I don't think they are - think Polynesian vs Thai ancestry) the development, and tightness of the muscles has a huge impact on where the arm sits in relation to the neck and the shoulder joint at rest and during movement. Think of an olympic weight lifter vs a back stroke swimmer as an exaggerated example. Isn't this why we need individual measuring and fitting in this tricky area?

[vtmartha]

I want to thank everyone for helping me with this! 

I followed Ann's directions and found the hinge.  I was aided by the fact that it was tender to the touch - apparently I had been poking the correct place all along.  It seems to be further out toward the arm than I had imagined, probably because my arms are not very muscular.  Note to Betsy: my horse riding muscles are (should be )in the central core, the horse keeping muscles in the arms and legs!  I'm very proud of my slowly rising biceps but need to encourage tricep development more.  My solution is to position the tractor bucket higher so that I have to push the muck buckets up.

I didn't measure my shoulder length to compare.  The base of my neck is fairly muscular so I haven't located it either  .  My shoulder slope is a bit like a 'V'.

The solution to the sleeve problem lay in the fact that I had not sewn enough ease into the sleeve cap.  The sleeve was in fact pulling the bodice off my shoulder.  I had altered the armscye to fit and altered the sleeve to my measurements as well.  It never occurred to me that the sleeve cap might actually be correct for the armscye once altered.  Once I sewed along the seamlines, it fit fairly well.

This was a great discussion and I learned a lot!

[fzxdoc]

This was a great discussion and I learned a lot!

Me too!  Thanks everyone!
 
Kathryn