Underlining

[joan13]

Help!! I am new to this list and look forward to all of your expertise.

Is Sibonne underlinging still available?? Is underlining by any name still available?? I need to underline wool flannel pants and underlining is my preference.

As an alternative, what lining fabric would be suitable that is lightweight and dry cleanable. Please, no organza for this project.

Any help would be appreciated.

Joan

[Katherine]

I don't thnk Sibonne has been available for years.

I'm not sure what your objection to silk organza is, but that would have been my choice.  If I did that, I'd probably line them as well.

Given that, the only other 2 possibilities I can think of are cotton batiste & bemberg rayon lining.  Ambiance is the name I've seen it sold under.  JoAnn fabrics has it in a couple of colors.  Other places online have it in lots of colors.

Katherine

[joan13]

Yes, I was thinking of a half lining of Bemburg or lightweight rayon twill given that Sibonne doesn't seem to exist anymore. Organza is nice for sheers but for wool and action garments, just doesn't hold up well, as I have learned.

I was just hoping that somewhere someplace some kind of underlining was on the market. Bah humbug.

Joan

[joan71]

joan13, The Mar. 2008 issue of Threads Mag. (mine just arrived in the mail yesterday) has an article about Underlining/Interlining and resources listed.  This article is not about lining, however, such as Ambiance Bemberg, acetate, poly and others we would use for lining.

Joan

[joan13]

Other Joan -- thanx for the tip. Will look for magazine. I would prefer underlining if I can get it. Bemburg is a good alternative as it has some give, always good when the derriere is involved.

Joan

[Katherine]

Technically, underlining is simply another fabric that is basted to the fashion fabric.  The result is treated as 1 fabric in construction.

What are you looking for the underlining to do for your finished garment?  What fiber are you looking for?  What are you doing in these pants that silk organza won't last long enough?

Katherine

[joan13]

Kathryn -- I haven't worked with wool for ages but when I was making wool straight skirts and slacks, particularly in flannel, I always used Sibonne to underline, treating both fabrics as one. This served two purposes, to keep shape retention, particularly in the seat, and to reduce itching. I am sensitive to wool.

Organza is a lovely fabric underlining for sheers and as an interfacing in some cases. Someone once told me to try it as an alternative to Sibonne. Well, disaster; while silk is nice, it simply doesn't have the stamina for clothes which get a lot of action such as pants and skirts. Nor does it last long with frequent drycleaning. I was totally disappointed. Another friend suggested quality rayon; I've tried that on several occasions and as it dry cleans well it is probably the best alternative to Sibonne or something similar.

As Sibonne apparently is no longer made nor any other underlining similar in nature, I guess I will try Bemburg or other suitable rayon lining for underlining.

I've been away for many years for sewing for myself, having been kept busy with costuming antique dolls for doll dlealers customers and wriiting a book on vintage fabrics. I feel like Rip Van Winkle in some cases in trying to find out what's gone and what's new.

Hope this helps you understand my predicament.

Joan

[BetsyV]

Joan

I have to say I found your point of view on silk organza really interesting. I underlined an entire 2-piece skirt suit - every piece - with silk organza. Fashion fabric was a lightweight tropical wool. It was the whole shebang - hair canvas interfacing, bias wigan for sleeve and jacekt hem interfacing, padstitiching, fully lined, custom shoulder pads, yadda yadda yadda.

I dryclean my dry-clean-only stuff 1x per year unless I get something ugly on it. I would no more "frequently" dry clean something than run it through a paper shredder. It's appallingly abusive to fabric and usually not necessary to do more than once a season or a couple of times a year if it's something you wear all year round. I would use cotton batiste to underline something really lightweight; silk organza for everything else.

BTW, I have yet to dryclean that suit and I finished it nearly a year ago. The organza underlining keeps it looking pretty fresh and my pressure steam generating iron keeps it that way.

[PatPrende]

I can tell that you have been away from fashion sewing for a very long time!  Welcome back to that world!   

Sibonne, which was a rayon product (I believe) has not been available for 25 to 30 years, so if you came across it more recently, it was extremely old stock. 

I understand your concerns about silk organza, however I have never had the problems you have described.  In fact, I routinely utilize a piece of white silk organza as a pressing cloth, using it over and over again, replacing it only when it becomes rather brown from the many times the fibers have been heated up.  I usually dip the organza in warm water and then let it drip dry to soften it before using it to line/underline Summer jackets.  No problems to report with that utilization of silk organza either . . . and it is certainly a "cool" lining.   

Nancy Erickson suggests a pantliner, made of Bemberg rayon, in slacks.  The pantliner can then be washed/dried after each wearing, cutting dramatically on the frequency to dryclean the wool pants.  The pantliner pattern is part of her pants pattern.     www.fashionsewing.com

[joan13]

Betsy and Pat -- Thanx for your uplifting posts re organza. And the Bemburg pants liner.

I don't want to give the impression that I dry clean a lot; in fact, not much in most cases as the odor isn't agreeable with me. But when I was making wool skirts and slacks, I wore them to death at work and for casual wear, repsectively. Especially at work where you are up and down constantly from your desk.  Wool takes a beating in the seat no matter the quality, and worsted develops an unwanted sheen. And wool does carry an odor so in close quarters at work, you need to clean more often than not, unfortunately.

I remember when Sibonne first hit the market, no more wispy china silk!!. It was a rayon/poly mix; I have the percentages somewhere on a salesman sample. It was the perfect answer, behaved lovely and wore well and could be used with most fibers, much better than the version Armo put out; can't think of the name. Although that brand sold better than Sibonne.

Yes, it would be around the early 70s when I stopped sewing for myself for several reasons: hated the new fabrics for the most part, pattern companies standardized sizes which meant that Vogue which was a perfect fit would have to be altered and no time to do much of that, moving up in the corporate world with less time to sew and Little Leage, Little League, Littte League.

Now that I've been long retired and no longer in the doll costuming business and am at a good place in writing about fabrics, I've started to sew for myself again. Someone gave me some quality flannel yardage; the grey caught my eye so it was a must have for pants. And that brings us to the present and the now-aborted search for the underlinging of my choice.   Woe.

You have all been very helpful with your experiences with organza. And it's heartening to know there is a Bemburg pants liner pattern. Appreciate that url. So much catching up to do. Nothing like jumping from the 70s directly to nanofibers and missing the inbetween.

Happy first day of the year to you all; on to more fabric fondling and collecting and sewing.

Joan

[joan71]

joan 13, I can totally relate to you about jumping back into sewing after a long hiatus.  I had a long one also......mid 70's til Year 2000.  I want to affirm PatPrende's mention of Nancy Erickson's Fashion Sewing Group.  Her newsletter and fabrics(including Bemberg lining) and patterns have been a great resource for me to 'get caught up' on current fashion sewing and style.

Would you believe I have a couple yds. of Sibonne leftover from that long ago era......bright turquoise.  One day there will be the perfect garment for which I can use it.

HTH,
Joan

[joan13]

It's so good to know I have a compatriot. I found salesman's sample of Sibonne. Great combo of fibers. This would have been from latter 60s-early 70s. It is white but put colored paper over it to give those who are not familiar with SiBonne a better feel for it.

And I did check out the sewing site; bookmarked it and later today will join. Looks like some very useful information.

Joan

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[joan13]

Seeing that several persons recommended bemburg underlining, I bought Ambiance at 50% off at Joann's. It's very difficult to cut even with Gingher's serrated featherweight. I will be underlining just an inch or two below the crotch so need to make a narrow hem at that cutoff point. But keeping a straight edge while cutting, even weighted and pinned down, is an exercise in futility as they say. If it weren't for this hem, there would be no cutting until lining was basted to  flannel.

For future reference, any suggestions to make cutting easier??

Joan13

[Katherine]

It is creapy, crawly stuff.  I hate cutting it. 

I don't use scisosrs.  I use a rotary cutter on a large cutting mat.  You still have to be really careful that the grain is straight, but it doesn't shift all over the place as much because you aren't lifting it at all by putting scissors under it.

I haven't tried, it, but I've heard of people having sucessess with starching crawly fabrics before cutting.  The problem there is you need to wash the item when it's finished to get it out.  That's not too helpful for something that's going to be dry cleaned.

Katherine

[lyra]

Ambiance is evil little stuff. I polished off a bunch of UFOs over New Years that were UFOs soley because I detest working with it.     That said, it's nice lining once you've whacked over the head & sewn it up, so I keep using it.  Glutton for punishment.

I always cut it with a rotary cutter. I do french seams with it when I doing skirt linings sometimes because I'm a little rough on my work skirts. Like last time I had to crawl into one of our data center closets in a skirt I'd made, I busted the back center seam and had to tape it back together with packaging tape... ewwwwww.  (It was a really ravelly wool poly blend from Joanns, and unlined, so I was asking for trouble with it.)

I've never used starch... my mom's advice is a pin every inch, and lay it out on the cutting table to pin it. Be careful because not only is it slippery but it also unravels if you're rough with it while sewing.

[nancymm]

When I was a fashion design student many years ago, we were taught an underlining technique by our French construction (sewing) teacher.
We were using china silk, also very slippery.

We spread out large sheets of waxed tracing paper, and laid the lining material on top of it, on grain, in one layer, never on a fold.
Then we laid out the full pattern on top of it, and marked the pattern with a tracing wheel.

We didn't cut the lining out; we laid the whole piece on top of the fashion fabric, marking side up, and basted or pinned it to the fabric, also on grain.
THEN, we cut out the pattern, with the lining and the fashion fabric as one. I don't remember it being an agony, and there were no rotary cutters
or serrated scissors then; just the same old Wiss scissors we used for fabric.

I remember doing it with organza, also, and it seemed to me to go quickly. We underlined everything then.

[joan13]

Nancy -- I do it that way also, first bonding underlining to fabric by steaming together cut fashion fabric and uncut underlining. This relaxes the fibers and tension to each other. Then I baste to each other, press again to make sure all lays [lies] smoothly, machine baste, then cut off underlining not to be used.

This is how I planned to do this except as I am only underlining part way, I need a narrow hem  at bottom of underlining. Drats. Otherwise there would be no problem.

Good to see that others use your technique.

Joan

[Towanda]

One thing that works for me when using slippery fabric is to lay down a sheet of soil separator paper under and sometimes over the fabric. The fabric clings to the paper. It keeps the fabric from shifting or sliding across the cutting mat. I buy the roll of 36 x 300. I just bought a roll at Lowe's. The price has gone up to 38.00 a roll. It is a staple in my sewing room.

[nancymm]

Joan, how about just serging the bottom, and saying the hell with it?

[joan13]

I don't have a serger; thought about my overcaster but nay, nay, nay. That's really trouble. I just ironed a double narrow hem and will pray it's even. LOL.

Joan

[TashaGirl]

If you can find it, a light weight cotton batiste is what we always used to use as an underlining.  It breathes and holds up.  It is also easier to work with than Ambience.  I would never use Ambiance as an underlining, only as a lining.  I don't beleive that it is strong enough as an underlining.  I also recommend the recent Kenneth King article in Threads.

[bookish]

The Kenneth King article is very good.  I picked up some solid color rayon challis from Hancock's yesterday (30% off) for underlining.  I agree that bemberg is nice for lining but the devil's own for underlining.

[joan13]

I'm working with wool so batiste would not really be suitable. I like it and lining lawn for cottons, though. I am not a fan of rayon challis as an underlining, so I hope Bemburg works. Thank goodness it is just for a small area across seat of pants and stomach. But will never buy it again.

I did read the article in Threads. Interesting although nothing most of us old sewers haven't done or thought of in more than half a century of sewing. LOL

Joan

[Armchair Sewer]

I have enjoyed reading all these underlining tips.

The one and only time I have bothered with underlining, after hearing people rave about it online, threads articles etc, was silk organza on a tweed wool skirt.
The end result was horrible, a total wadder - the organza strained at the seams and started to tear, and it creased up across the front of the skirt, making it look I think more wrinkled than it would have otherwise.

I have always blamed the silk organza and vowed never to use it again.  I have always wondered since then why people advocate using it.  Maybe other sewers have different standards to me , but perhaps it was technique and a poor quality organza that caused the disaster?

the underlining puzzle I have always wrestled with is, should the underlining be the same size exactly as the fashion fabric, or should it be either cut or sewn to be slightly smaller than the fashion fabric. I've seen both advocated. Giving up on ht whole idea means I've never had to work it out LOL.

[AnnRowley]

I'm not going to add to the cutting information given here - except to say that my regular scissors have always cut it with no problem

However - the hem at the lower edge problem is easily solved..

Cut the section with the lower edge along the selvage - just rotate the grain 90 degrees.

I always do this with pants - the strain on the underlining is likely to be across rather than down     and the lengthwise, warp grain, now horizontal, is stronger than the weft.

[simonfreep]

Ann - That is a great tip!  Why didn't I think of that?  I will certainly be using that idea next time I line something.

[joan13]

And why didn't I think of that also!! I guess we get so attuned to the straight we forget about alternatives. Thanx Ann.

And it's good to hear another person noting the disadvantage of using organza in stress and action areas. Alll the more why I cry for SiBonne or the like.

Joan 13

[joan13]

I am still in shock that I totally overlooked the simplicity of using selvage edges. Those edges are folded together, fabric on top, ready to steam for bonding, then onto the real work. Thanx again Ann for solving the problem.

Joan 13

[Katherine]

I've never underlined pants with it, but I did underline a slik dress once.  What about silk crepe de chine?  You can get it from Thai Silks or Dharma Trading.

Dharma Trading is a dyehouse.  They sell natural colored fabrics, yarns, & of corse everything you need to dye.

Silk Crepe de chine is nice to work with.  It's heavier than ambience though.

Katherine

[Marty1112]

I just underlined a linen skirt with organza...it was a little tricky to cut out (I should have cut both together, but I decided to underline after I had cut out the line), but then I laid each linen piece out on the cutting table with the organza on top and pinned the linen to the organza every inch or so, and basted the layers together at the edge (on the machine), and along the dart folds.  Then I treated both layers as one.  It worked like a charm, and the skirt really falls nicely with the extra support. 

[Liana]

I generally use the selvedge as a little pre-made hem as well, but never knew if I was smart or just lazy.

[fzxdoc]

I have enjoyed reading all these underlining tips.

The one and only time I have bothered with underlining, after hearing people rave about it online, threads articles etc, was silk organza on a tweed wool skirt.
The end result was horrible, a total wadder - the organza strained at the seams and started to tear, and it creased up across the front of the skirt, making it look I think more wrinkled than it would have otherwise.

I have always blamed the silk organza and vowed never to use it again.  I have always wondered since then why people advocate using it.  Maybe other sewers have different standards to me , but perhaps it was technique and a poor quality organza that caused the disaster?

the underlining puzzle I have always wrestled with is, should the underlining be the same size exactly as the fashion fabric, or should it be either cut or sewn to be slightly smaller than the fashion fabric. I've seen both advocated. Giving up on ht whole idea means I've never had to work it out LOL.

Armchair Sewer, I have underlined dresses, jackets, pants, and skirts with silk organza for well over 10 years.  While I can't say that any of my clothes get heavy wear, the silk organza has done a lovely job. I only had it shred once, in a pair of wool pants, and I think it was because I purchased it from a vendor whom I no longer do business with.  It was black organza, and I've heard that dyes weaken the silk fiber, but I've never had any problem with black silk organza (or other colors) purchased from www.thaisilks.com.  I get my undyed silk organza by the bolt from Dharma Trading Co. 

I cut the underlining after it has been basted to the fashion fabric, cutting the fabric and underlining as one, so it's always the same size as the pattern pieces.  For me, it's too tricky to try to cut it smaller, although I have read that recommendation as well. 

Kathryn

[Armchair Sewer]

Armchair Sewer, I have underlined dresses, jackets, pants, and skirts with silk organza for well over 10 years.  While I can't say that any of my clothes get heavy wear, the silk organza has done a lovely job. I only had it shred once, in a pair of wool pants, and I think it was because I purchased it from a vendor whom I no longer do business with. 

Thanks Kathryn, I got the organza from a remnants bin in a fairly ordinary fabric store so it makes sense that it was just poor quality.  I'll be brave and try it again with some of the good stuff! (and what a great excuse to do some fabric shopping too ). 

[BetsyV]

I cut the underlining after it has been basted to the fashion fabric, cutting the fabric and underlining as one, so it's always the same size as the pattern pieces.  For me, it's too tricky to try to cut it smaller, although I have read that recommendation as well. 

Well now I know why it took 2 full days for me to cut out the fabric, lining, underlining, and interfacing for a skirt suit last winter. I never thought to baste the wool and organza together before I cut the pattern pieces out. That said, I also doubt I could have seen enough of the pinstripe to get a good match, too, if the navy organza was basted on top of the wool. I will have to remember that next time!

And so far, I have only used silk organza to underline. Hoever, I bought some white cotton batiste to underline a cranberry red wool crepe, but only to block the red color from visually bleeding through and darkening the background of the lining fabric I chose for the jacket. I will try to remember to baste it to the wool before I cut the jacket pieces out. At least it will save some time!